In this episode, we talk with MacBeth Watson, Vice President of Design & Research at Strava in San Francisco, California. MacBeth’s career spans companies such as Microsoft, Pinterest, Starbucks, and Strava. Watson talks about how her endurance and achievements as an accomplished athlete have helped focus her career goals, the importance of connections in making career changes, and her unique approach to design leadership—focusing on the best approach to take on a project, finding the right people to bring new perspectives, and being confident in your genuine self.

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Jp:

Macbeth Watson, thank you for being on This is Design School. We greatly appreciate your time here.

Macbeth:

Yeah, this is fun.

Jp:

Yeah! And, a fellow Seattlite, now in San Francisco.

Can you, maybe, give us a little bit of your design journey? How did you get to be where we are today?

Macbeth:

Yeah, so I mean, art was probably part of, like, my upbringing. My mom was an artist. So, it just kind of naturally… I went into school with, like, art and design, or science… Very different ways. And, design just like felt right after, like, going through a bunch of science classes. And so, yeah. I kind of went into college, got a degree in visual communication, and then continued on from there into, like, some of the bigger companies in Seattle.

Chad:

Did you go into school knowing you wanted to do design?

Macbeth:

I went in knowing I wanted to do science or design. So, it was either microbiology or graphic design. So, all the schools I looked at had to have both, so I didn’t have to change, and university Your Washington was close to home, good programs for both, was a natural fit.

Chad:

So, ultimately, how did you decide because those are two very different things?

Macbeth:

I know, right?

All:

(laugh))

Jp:

Or, are they? (laughs)

Macbeth:

I think it was a… Yeah, there was a winter where I took a lot of, like, calculus and organic chemistry and, like, just really heavy load. And, it kind of just was like, “This is really hard and doesn’t feel natural.” And so, I decided that following quarter to take some of the art classes, and talked to an advisor, and jumped right into Visual Communication from there. I was just like, “No, this doesn’t fit.” And, design, like, happened really naturally from there.

So, I graduated. I kind of needed a break. So, I coached skiing for a couple years. I missed design so much that I started redesigning random things. And then, did a bunch of short contracts in the Seattle area to, kind of, get a taste of what was in the job market, really. And, I landed in digital. And then, landed at Starbucks corporate in their… They had a label, like a record label, called Here Music, or they renamed it Starbucks Entertainment for a while as well, and kind of landed there and stayed at Starbucks for six years.

Chad:

In those, like… First, doing all those contracts since right when you were, kind of, getting into it, what did you learn from that experience and did that inform going into digital immediately?

Macbeth:

Yeah. I mean, I started with things, like… I would pick up small contracts where I was like, “Oh, we need a presentation for Nordstrom’s all hands, or small print project.” And then, some digital agencies, like, even Flash design, and ads, and… I really liked agencies for the fast pace. Digital just kind of made sense for me. Like, print was great, and I loved it. But, it wasn’t where I saw myself going. And so, quickly went into websites and digital advertising.

Jp:

So, good job at Starbucks?

Macbeth:

Yes! Starbucks is great! I got a redesign a lot of websites. We moved… One of my last major projects was bringing their website into being responsive, to going across all of the platforms. And, that took a couple years of, like, proof of concept and then finding templates, getting them onto, like, a whole back end that could manage all the content, which… Because, when I first started, there was like, you’d hand code if there was a typo… And so, that took a while. And then, when I felt like I, kind of, had done it enough when we landed in a really good place. So, the website was fully responsive. And, it was one of the biggest of that at that time, which is pretty cool.

Jp:

Yeah.

Macbeth:

And then, from there I went to… I decided I wanted to learn more about applications, and application design, and shipping, like, bigger products. And so, I went to Xbox, on their operating system.

Chad:

Was that transition hard, going from more web-based design in digital over to, like, a product or, essentially an operating system?

Macbeth:

I… So, yes. A lot of the systems work I had done on the website landed itself very, like, transitioned really well to Xbox. But, it was a transition. Also, Xbox moved way slower. They shipped, like, twice a year. Like, two really big ships, where one is for E3 and one is for Thanksgiving. And so, I was used to releasing on a weekly basis, almost.

Chad:

Right.

Macbeth:

So, that was probably the hardest transition. But, it was an amazing experience to, kind of like, work on something so big.

Chad:

What was the shift in the team dynamic going from one or the other?

Macbeth:

Yeah, so at Starbucks, the digital team was under marketing, whereas at Xbox it was product. The design team was kind of its own unit, really. It shared a building with the PM and engineering team, but we were 30 people… 35 people when I started? And, even the shift of, like, cross platform, including 10 foot screens, and learning what that meant, it was quite a bit different than where I’d been on a pretty small team.

Chad:

I guess when you were there, at that point in your career, what was finding your voice like as a designer?

Macbeth:

Yeah, that was a an interesting switch for me because, at Starbucks, like everyone’s the Starbucks customer, in some ways. Like, you can relate really easily to the product and having a screen in store, like, ordering, finding out what you need on your coffee. But, at Xbox it was a pretty big drastic shift. I’m not a gamer. I’m not even good at sitting in front of the TV and watching TV. I don’t sit still very well. So, it was a pretty drastic change, which was actually good. Because, I had to disassociate myself as the user and really listen, and try to understand what these people who use Xbox wanted in their product, and what they needed, instead of what I wanted or needed in something.

Chad:

Is that a perspective you felt you had, like, the mindset or the methodologies prepared for going into that, from school or prior experiences? Or, was it something that you learned from the team and the people around you?

Macbeth:

I think the basis I had learned in school helped quite a bit, just being able to, kind of, be fairly neutral and solve problems. But, I definitely had to go through learning a lot of methodologies. And also, most of the other designers on the team were gamers. So, I use them as, like, information sources, as well as Xbox users. They are some of the most vocal users, I would say, on any product. They are very… You don’t have to have research studies to understand what they want, like, they are in the forums, they are everywhere. And so, it took a little while to, kind of, learn that and get up to speed on what they were looking for.

But looking back, I think the same principles apply. It just was that personal journey of, like, taking myself out of it. I couldn’t solve for myself.

Chad:

Yeah. What was the most rewarding part of working, like, at that stage of your career?

Macbeth:

I think the design team at Xbox was pretty amazing. Even though I wasn’t a gamer, it felt like a family. It was really tight knit. There was a lot of different types of designers. Like, they weren’t all clones of each other, for lack of a better word, or way to describe it. Some people were from different backgrounds. It was just very diverse, and they’re very inclusive. And so, that felt pretty amazing and probably the highlight.

Learning how to do vision work, and make that happen was great to see. Because you’d have to come up with these huge concepts for E3, or for other big marketing pushes to help the product move forward. And then, being able to get as much of that into engineering, and made, was quite the job.

Chad:

Yeah. Is that mindset of, like, appreciating having a team that’s diverse and inclusive, is that something that you took with you after you left Xbox?

Listen on

Macbeth:

It’s definitely one of the main things now that I value, or try to hire for. Right now at Strava, like I’ve had to pretty much recreate the team. And, I’m always aware of, do we need someone who has different skills? Do we want someone who has a different perspective, different strengths, different weaknesses, so that the team as a whole can be stronger? As well as, like, feel like… Here, it’s always an issue of like, “Is everyone an athlete, or like, a serious athlete?” And, the goal is actually no. Like, we need to have a group… They all need to be passionate about what we’re building, which was also something very true about Xbox, but that doesn’t mean they have to be, like, high performance runners or cyclists.

Jp:

So, Xbox for a while.

Macbeth:

Yeah, I was at Microsoft for four years. Yeah. Kind of, a lot of the entertainment products of Xbox. So TV, live TV, re-did their store, like that kind of stuff.

Jp:

Cool. And then, now, where were you off to after that?

Macbeth:

So, after that, I got talked into coming to the San Francisco area to work at Pinterest. And, that was probably almost three years ago now. And, the team was smaller. But, one of my creative directors from Xbox, kind of like, motivated me and talked me into joining the team. And, it was huge switch, given that Pinterest, like, was back to web, mobile platform. No 10 foot and things like that. I also decided to switch and try going back to being an IC [Individual Contributor]. Because at Microsoft and Xbox I had, like, this very large team I was managing. It was very… almost felt overwhelming since, like, nine designers and a front end engineering team, at the time. And so, I came to Pinterest and started off as an IC on the growth team.

Chad:

And, IC is an individual contributor, yeah?

Macbeth:

Yes. Sorry for the acronyms. (laughs)

So yeah… I went back to, like, being the hands that designed, and being in Sketch, and, kind of, actually doing the work. Which was pretty, it was an eye opener for me because, like, as a designer, you would think that that is like the cream, like, that is like the best part of design. But, quickly I realized that my strenghts had definitely transitioned into more leadership. And so, within a couple months, I was already back leading a very small team, and making those cross functional relationships better, and elevating other designers, and it just quickly… Within a year or two then, I was leading all of growth at Pinterest. So…

Chad:

I mean, because you grew up in Seattle too, right?

Macbeth:

Mmhmm. Yeah.

Chad:

And so, what was it like both doing that kind of career transition, while at the same time moving down to San Francisco, and being in this new space and new community. Like, not that Seattle and San Francisco are completely different, but they’re relatively different culturally.

Macbeth:

Yeah, it was definitely a shock, almost to the point that it was such a drastic change that it really made me think through, like, all my strengths and weaknesses, and who am I, what am I as a designer, as well as like, where is my career gonna go from here? Things like that. Whereas my athletics, like my hobbies and, kind of, leaving all my friends in Seattle; had a very tight knit group. So, it was pretty shocking, actually. But, I dug into work, dug into… signed up for an Ironman, and kind of made my way through the process.

Chad:

Yeah.

Another thing I’m curious about, when you think about designers in their young careers, is the idea of developing really good contacts with those you work with, kind of on your journey through your career path. So, this idea that, you know, you worked with someone at Microsoft…

Macbeth:

Yup.

Chad:

And then, they moved. And then, they convinced you to move. What is that… What’s that like? And, what does that feel like?

Macbeth:

Yeah. I think, actually, most of my career decisions have been based on people I’ve known, or connections I’ve made between people. So, friends of friends, or things like that. And, having that relationship where you trust them, and trust what they’re saying, or trust that they think that this is a great opportunity for you, or things like that, is paramount really. It’s such a key part. And, even now it’s like, I make decisions based on the people that I’m going to work with. Do I trust them? Do I think that they’re going to be amazing to work with? Will I continue to learn from them? Things like that,

Jp:

That feels like it’s also a part of the other part of who you are as an athlete—that there’s a sense of trust, but also a sense of teamwork that is built around that trust, built around that system of working together to a common goal.

Macbeth:

Yeah, definitely. I would say that, you know, people make our lives richer. So, for athletics, people make me motivated to keep running, or biking, or swimming, or doing things. At work, they inspire me to challenge myself, to help me learn through things, or push my own expectations of myself. It’s definitely… People are part of your life, even if they’re only for moments, or I only talk to them every once in a while, it’s still, like, so impactful. So, now I just got a promotion. So, now I’m Head of Product Design at Strava.

Jp:

Oh! Product design.

Macbeth:

Yeah.

Jp:

How does it feel to be transitioning into this? Again, you’re back into another leadership role, and not an IC. And now, you’re nurturing and mentoring the ICs below you?

Macbeth:

Yeah. I think that’s actually the part over the last couple years that I have found that I really love about what I get to do, is helping other designers get to do their best work, be the best designers they can be, or want to be, and help them fulfill their goals. At Pinterest, it was about finding those opportunities and the projects and the teams that made the most sense for those designers, as well as, same here at Strava, it’s, you know, how can I help them? Or, how can I influence them to challenge themselves, or just put them in the right fit?

Chad:

What has it been like transitioning from a good designer into that leadership role? Earlier on in your career, you’re trying to find your voice as a designer, and oftentimes we do that by, like, looking up to people and kind of copying them. And then at some point, we kind of find our own voice in that. What do you see that evolving into for yourself?

Macbeth:

So, my athletic career and my design career have, kind of, gone hand-in-hand. And, a lot of it’s been, kind of, back and forth between the two. Yeah. Athletics has brought me confidence in my abilities to get through things, or be authentically myself. And then, I’m able to pull that into my design career and be confident in who I am, and be okay with that I am me as a leader. I’m not necessarily exactly like any other design leader, and that that’s okay. Like, I am super candid and, you know, I tend to move pretty quickly through things. But, I also listen and care deeply for my teams, and everyone else’s opinio,n and try to take what I have and make the best decisions—sometimes too quickly. But, I’ll counter pretty fast as well, and be authentic about that. And, everyone knows that. But, it’s definitely gone hand-in-hand. Like that confidence I get from being athletic, and going through those situations that athletics and triathlons have pushed me into has definitely supported everything I’ve done in my design career as well.

Jp:

Do you find that there are young designers that are coming out of school now that have that similar mentality, or that that’s something that is learned after several years of doing it?

Macbeth:

I think each designer is kind of different. Some are really confident and, like, really sure of who they are and know what point of view they want to have. Sometimes that’ll get challenged, as it does for most people throughout their career.

Chad:

And, as it should.

Macbeth:

Yeah, exactly. Others, even more mature and experienced designers, I think are still struggling with that. Of like, “Do I emulate my manager or my mentor?” Or, “How can I be my own designer?” I recently talked to one of the designers on the team here and she’s definitely growing into understanding what she wants to do and what excites her, but she still feels like she’s being asked to maybe be a manager when she doesn’t want to. Is that right for her? Is that right for her career? I think you have to even experience designers go through that challenge of, like, it can be really hard to be you when you’re surrounded by a bunch of people who either celebrate or are slightly different in methodologies or mindset, things like that.

Jp:

I feel that as a faculty member who’s on the other side, you know, trying to be the mentor, trying to be their advocate, and also pushing them out to have that experience, I often wonder, am I preparing them enough? Am I doing the right thing? Am I saying the right thing that’s going to give them that push of being confident, but also being willing to be challenged? And, realizing, “Yes, I’m right. Or “No, I need to change that methodology,” and adapts and moves forward, and so forth. I don’t know if I’ve landed on the right solution, yet. But, here we go. You know, like, I dive off the deep end just with them as well. So…

Macbeth:

I think it’s that being willing to kind of have challenges and come through the other side of them and learn from them. I even have, like, a visceral reaction to when people say they’ve had failures. And, it’s like, “No, you’ve learned from that and you got through it.” And, “What did you learn from it?” Things like that. Because, it’s good to have those experiences where it’s really hard. And, you have to come through the other side and, kind of, be better, or adapt, or change how you do things because it either makes sense for you, or doesn’t, or the situation you’re in, as well. Sometimes it just doesn’t fit, but knowing that is pretty key, or being able to evaluate it.

Chad:

I always like to say that it’s really only failure if you stop, rather than moving past it, moving beyond it, and figuring it out.

Macbeth:

Yeah, if you just like wallow in it, like that could be… I mean, there’s a lesson there, I’m sure. But, yeah. I think having challenges and being able to push through them, even situational, or design challenges. Same thing.

Chad:

Yeah. What about this idea of being uncomfortable, and discomfort? I feel like that is a common theme, both between being a designer and being an athlete.

Macbeth:

Yeah.

Chad:

Just, maybe one is more physical.

Chad & Macbeth:

(laugh)

Macbeth:

Yes, it’s definitely very, uh.. You get, like… It’s funny because I constantly say this, because it’s like… You need to train to be okay with having uncomfortable conversations, or being in these uncomfortable situations for possibly, like, some time. And, some things don’t resolve themselves really quickly, especially with people involved. Or, even design challenges. Like, it may not be great, but if you’re okay with staying in that situation for a little while, you can usually move past it, and keep iterating, keep finding something that feels better, and gets to a better solution. And, athletics is definitely like that. I think since I do Ironman triathlons, you wind up with, like, this 12 plus hour day of being uncomfortable. And, you… That’s a long time! You get really comfortable with being uncomfortable. Then there’s like the daily practice, almost, of it. So it’s… Yeah. I think it’s been pretty… I only kind of really realized that a couple years ago, of how much that has played into being gritty or being able to get through some of these situations, both in work and athletics.

Chad:

Besides practice, is there any personal strategies that you have to help you push through discomfort?

Macbeth:

I think a lot of it’s mental. To be honest, being aware that this is right now, but this won’t be the same tomorrow or the next day, and that if you keep working on it, just like a design problem, you’re gonna have that epiphany at some point, or another opportunity come along, or things like that has been pretty paramount. I think a lot of people always say that I’m incredibly optimistic. And, I think it’s just that I tried to make sure that I try to make sure that I’m aware that there is, like, better opportunities. So, it’s not that it’s like unrealistic of what’s going on. But, it’s that there’s always hope or something to improve upon. There’s also always something good that’s going on. And so, you can focus on those elements of it and keep making sure to maintain those things.

Chad:

When you look back… Well, let’s just narrow it down to your time since you’ve moved to San Francisco. What in that career, either between Pinterest or Strava, has been something, like a particular thing that’s been really uncomfortable that you’ve worked through and how’d you work through it?

Macbeth:

So, I would say Pinterest was hard for me. It was a very different design team. It was a different design culture. And really, I wouldn’t say I totally fit in, actually. And so, working through that, and finding people that I did connect with, or teams that I could be successful and help them be successful was a pretty big challenge for me. And, I learned a ton going through that, especially on the people side of leadership. And, what it meant to kind of stay true to me and not try to be a different kind of leader and necessarily be the same as what someone interpreted as what I should be. And so, it was tough. But, at the same time, I had successes continually through the entire experience. Like another designer that I was mentoring did amazing work and was thriving! And, you know, like, her growth was going through the roof. All these kind of things, and still trying to work through some of these other things that I was trying to learn, which was pretty amazing.

Chad:

Do you think that idea of fitting in is something that you think, like, put a lens on when you’re hiring and building the team?

Macbeth:

Definitely. I think both my experience at Xbox and how that felt so supportive and diverse, as well as my experience at Pinterest, whereas like, the talent was through the roof. But, there was also kind of a lot of similarities, and how the types of designers made me kind of… How can I bring the best of both of those worlds into my team here. So, I’ve definitely hired some—and the designers here are all super senior—and like, hired better designers than myself in a lot of cases.

But, they’re different. They have different skills, they have different strengths. Some are really into methodologies and process. Others are really into visual design. Some are not as athletic as, like, other people at Strava. Some are super athletic, you know. It just kind of depends. And so, it’s definitely been a huge part of how I like design teams to be, and I feel like they’re most successful is when you can have that diversity, but also the skill that was at Pinterest was through the roof. And so, that’s, kind of, I’ve also pulled that into Strava.

Chad:

When you came to Strava, being an athlete… (laughs)

Macbeth:

Yup. (laughs)

Chad:

I think this is an interesting challenge, because in some ways you are a user of the app, like the product before you came in. And, obviously, like walking around the office when we got here, you can tell there’s some pretty athletic people around here. Is it a problem to balance designing a product by athletes, for athletes, with also removing yourself from the product to some degree? And, how does your team balance that?

Macbeth:

Yeah. I think balance is actually probably the best word. It is really powerful to have, throughout the company, a lot of athletes build this product. Like, they’re passionate. They really believe in the mission and the vision. They will get it, like, just get into it in all the ways that you would love everyone to. But, at the same time, we have to remember that we are not our only users. We are not the only people that use this. And, we do want a diverse group of athletes using Strava. Like, it’s meant to be a record of your active life. And everyone… We kind of give everyone the word athlete as the title instead of user. Because even if you just go for just go for a walk, and I’m using air quotes, that is like being an athlete. You’re doing something. You’re taking action.

And so, we constantly try to look at the data. We constantly try to bring in athletes to talk about their experience on the product. What are they wanting to do? What are they trying to do? What do they need from us? All of these kind of things so that we can, kind of, sit back and not just use our point of view of what we should build. And, I think you can see in the product that sometimes it is true. Like, we’ve built things that we think are amazing and we really want. But, we’re also doing other things that we think our athletes will really benefit from.

Macbeth:

One of the things that I really appreciate within an app like Strava, is that it’s an app that actually is encouraging you to not use it, as opposed to getting out there and doing something with the app, or to log with the app. I’m having this love hate relationship with social media right now, of always feeling like a need to be on it because I’m missing something, as opposed to enjoying it, or experiencing something outside to experience something inside. And, an app like Strava is take it with you, but be in the physical world. Be out there to do something, which is really fascinating.

Macbeth:

Yeah, definitely. Our goal is to help people be motivated, help support and encourage people to be out and using their bodies and being active outside of the tech. And, the tech should just be there as a layer to record, or support, or find a new route. Like, these kind of things. Just be that outside support system for it versus actually being the core experience. We constantly are keeping track of how does our screen time on the app compared to how much time people are logging of activity. And, we really value that, like, right now like it’s more activity than it is screen time. So, how we design everything and still almost like encourage you to go back and do some more activity and not necessarily spend it scrolling through our feeds.

Jp:

So what’s the next phase?

Macbeth:

Well, for me, I’ve just been at Strava since January. So, I’m still relatively new here. The design team has gotten to a really healthy place. I’m super proud of where we’re at right now. The team’s getting very embedded in all their vertical teams, which is kind of like our focused teams that we have. And so, the next is like how can I make a bigger impact on product now that the teams and the designers are set up for success. It’s kind of like now we can really get into the weeds and push some new things.

So, we’ve started already with new challenge formats that solve a bunch of problems that were existing with our previous formats. And then, we’ve got a bunch of really cool stuff on the roadmap. So…

Jp:

Any CEO title behind your name anytime soon? Not… I mean, yes, it’s a goal. (laughs) But, I recognize there’s also, like… It’s a process. Things happen when they happen for a reason. And so, I’ve been able to definitely, like, take the role I’m currently in and show that I can achieve it. And so now, it’s like, how can I have a bigger business impact and really set the rest of the design team up for success so that it can have an impact on both the product as well as the business?

Jp:

So Macbeth, we’re almost at the end of our time with you. We like to end with a recommendation list from our guest. Wondering if you have a recommendation of a place to run in San Francisco, since we’re here for for a little bit doing some interviews. Any suggestions?

Macbeth:

Yeah. So, my probably favorite place is Golden Gate Park. It’s definitely, I think, a lot of people’s because you can run on trail instead of just on pavement. But, also the panhandle kind of connects to it, which is a really great loop for shorter distance, and then you can get into Golden Gate. You can get down to the ocean really quickly from there. And then, there’s like a really great, if you want to run like 20 miles, you can run all the way around the city and include it, which I’ve done a couple times. But, there’s like a lot of different routes right within the city in the Golden Gate Park.

Chad:

What’s something you… An article, or a book, or an audio book that you’ve read or listened to recently that you felt was impactful for you that would be beneficial for others?

Macbeth:

Yeah. I think lately I’ve been doing a lot of audiobooks while I run. And, my favorite has been the Dare to Lead book from Brené Brown. That really, kind of, pushes to be authentic. Be kind.

Chad:

Brené Brown talks a lot about vulnerability, right?

Macbeth:

Yeah. A lot of, like, just being yourself and being okay with that. And, not having to be perfect all the time, but kind of learning through it.

Chad:

Yeah. I’ve also never understood how people listen to audiobooks on the run. (laughs) How do you do that?

Macbeth:

Uhh. (laughs) I use it for only my long runs. And when… It’s a great way to distract yourself. So, I have, kind of, a usual route and it helps just, to defocus on this being uncomfortable. Or, maybe I’ve got a lot going on my head for work and I don’t want to think about that, and I want to just keep running. And so, it takes that pressure off and just helps you, kind of, keep going. I do podcasts sometimes, too. But…

Jp:

That’s funny because I do podcasts when I… I’m more of a cyclist and so that’s that’s what I listen to to get up the hills and to keep the endurance going. For some reason, listening to someone else’s conversation is very motivating for me. (laughs)

Macbeth:

Yeah! It distracts you and takes the focus off. I do like podcasts, but they switch too much for long runs. And so, books have been really good because it keeps you entertained and going, like, the entire time. For like a three hour run, it’s really nice to have a really long book.

Jp:

If I can make a recommendation for you.

Macbeth:

Yeah!

Jp:

There’s a podcast called LeVar Burton Reads. If you remember when you were younger, LeVar Burton had Reading Rainbow on PBS. Now he has a podcast which is Reading Rainbow for the kids back in the 80s…

Chad:

As adults?

Jp:

As adults!

Macbeth:

That’s amazing.

Jp:

He’s reading these short stories and they’re usually like half an hour, or so. But, oh man, it’s just so good.

Macbeth:

I bet.

Jp:

Last season he did a two part episode, and it was one of those ones where I, you know, I’m on the bike and it’s like, “Oh, this can’t last that long. How is he gonna wrap this up?” And then, he’s like, “Stay tuned next week.” And, I’m like, “Are you kidding me?! What are you doing to me?”

Macbeth:

See? Like, it keeps you going, keeps your mind off of things.

Chad:

What is your tracking device of choice?

Macbeth:

So, I use Garmin. And, I have a 935. So, it’s like their multi-sport one. It also is the longest battery life, which is really key.

Jp:

Oh yeah.

Macbeth:

And so, it does all the swim, bike, runs that I need. And then, I have an Apple Watch on the other arm. So, the Garmin is for my workouts, and since… Well, training for full Iron Man’s you tend to have two workouts a day, so it just doesn’t come off, because I’ll forget it and not having for my next workout. And then, I have an Apple Watch for what meeting I need to be at, those kind of notifications, and things like that. I used to wear, like, a really bright pink Timex watch just to have a regular time of day, but also to have like my time of race, like the overall time. And so, I use the Apple Watch for that now, too.

Chad:

Yeah.

Jp:

Well Macbeth, thank you so much for your time. We greatly appreciate it. And, it was an awesome conversation that we had.

Chad:

Yes, a lot of fun. Thank you.

Macbeth:

Yeah, it was great. I’m glad this all worked out.