On this episode, we talk with Minnie Bredouw, Executive Director and co-founder of The Purpose Project. Through her experiences at Frog, IDEO, and IDEO.org, teaching at various institutions, Bredouw has focused her career on developing a practice of design for social impact. In our conversation, Minnie talks about ethical and social problems that designers should be considering, the value of reflection and documentation after completing a project, and the importance of a designer’s motivation and inherent bias when working in new environments.

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Chad:

Minnie Bredouw, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. We’re so excited to have you.

Minnie:

It’s my pleasure.

Chad:

So, we wanted to get our conversation started off by, kind of, going through a little bit of your journey of how you discovered and found design. So, where did design first, kind of, enter your world? How did that happen?

Minnie:

It very much depends on how you define design. I was a weird, little homeschooled kid, actually…

Jp:

Oh? Oh, really? Okay.

Minnie:

Yeah. …Who grew up, kind of, with not a lot of structure to my day and I was constantly drawn to anything in, like, the craft world, or the art world. I think I drew pictures. I probably first discovered what design is more in the classic sense when I was probably in high school. I was really into yearbook. I just loved that I was telling a story with something that felt creative. So, that was, kind of, for me a big moment that opened my eyes to… I think we were using Pagemaker at the time, if you all remember that. And so, for my senior project in high school, I created a magazine to highlight some of the artwork, and some of the stories, and the poetry, and the really interesting creative work going on in our school. And, it just kind of launched me into this space of saying, “I know I can do this, somehow, for a living.”

The final part of that saga is in college, I ran into—at the University of Washington, I ran into some really incredible faculty, Annabelle Gould and Karen Cheng, and they convinced me to come into the world of Design formally. And, that kind of kicked it off and I don’t think I’ve looked back since.

Chad:

So, after getting some formal training, then… What was your experience in school? And then, how did that, or did that not prepare you for what you decided to do afterwards?

Minnie:

So, college was a lot more structured than I expected. Both of my parents were college dropouts. My dad is a musician and my mom’s a clothing designer. So, I didn’t know, or I think at times, really, appreciate the structure that was inherent to taking classes at these times and deadlines and deliverables. I think that was both a blessing and a curse. In some ways, I think the challenge, of course, being that I just wanted to make what I wanted to make, and I didn’t want to have to time it with the class I was taking. But, I think it also helped me create some rigor and structure around it that I formally hadn’t, obviously, had.

What I liked in particular about the program at University of Washington is all of the faculty members are also design practitioners. And so, I think I was a sophomore or a junior and one of my instructors, Kristine Matthews, brought me in to work on a project with her. And, I think that was one of the most valuable experiences I had, interestingly enough, was what happened outside the classroom. The skills learned, of course, in the classroom setting were great. But, being able to see somebody that I looked at as a mentor… it was her first year teaching, too. So, it was a really special, I think, year for both of us… And, watch her work, was absolutely foundational. And me saying, “I one day want to be like this woman.” And so, I think that that, for me, I’ve always been a very social creature and learning to see folks I admire doing work that I hope to do one day was one of the most valuable things I got out of that program.

Chad:

So then coming out, what did you do?

Minnie:

Great question. So, I wish I had some cool story of how I struggled. And I, you know, did this, you know, all these odd jobs until I finally found my path. I worked hard. I’m not going to discredit the work I did. But, I was also in the right place at the right time.

Chad:

Yeah.

Minnie:

So, this is funny. It sort of dates me. Like, the iPhone just came out. So, this is 2007. And, we were designing for the iPhone! And, it was so exciting. I think this was 2008 or nine. So, just a year or two after… gave a presentation about how maybe digital technology could enable community resource sharing. We designed this app that we shared and it was a bit of a competition, and our team won. So, we got to go share it at Microsoft. And, someone from a company, Frog Design, which was in Seattle at the time, saw me speak and asked me to send them my portfolio. I built it in a weekend. Sent it over…

Jp:

Like any good student, right? (laughs)

Minnie:

That’s what you do!

And, at the time, things like Squarespace and WordPress weren’t a big deal… we didn’t have… Squarespace didn’t exist. So, I found a friend of mine in the engineering program, and I was like, “Can you build me this? I promise…” I think I gave him some, like, logo designs in exchange. And, sent it in. And, they had me come in for an interview a couple weeks later, and then I think I was hired by March.

So, it was kind of this funky, weird kind of purgatory between March and June when I started where I was sort of in this odd transition of, “Okay, now we’re getting started.” You know? I think what was really interesting about the transition was that it kind of forced me to almost instantly put together all of the things I had learned into, kind of, what do I want this to be going forward?

I was hired as an interaction designer, which at the time, was a very, very new type of designer. But, the quick, kind of, realization I had it frog, I think I was 23 when I started and, you know, by the time I was 25, I had a pretty good sense that I wanted to use design as a way to do something that would create some type of social impact. I think because I was a young, energetic gal—at the time—and they paired me with a team working on a global initiative to help think about how do we develop leadership skills with young women in a variety of countries. It was kind of a jackpot. I think I was 24 on this project, and I flew around the world. I worked with young women, between the ages of 14 and 18, and got to develop a toolkit to help build leadership skills and creative skills with young women. So, I was all over. I was in Bangladesh, and Ethiopia, and Kenya, and India. I’m just a kid, I’m going, “Okay. Well, this is kind of cool.” So, it kind of… I think that, you know, is almost 10 years ago, it kind of launched me into this question of how can Design and thinking about creating some type of, at the time I was calling it, social good or social impact. Now, I think more about helping to elevate the voices of those who have historically not had a voice. It’s a longer less sexy title. But, I asked myself back then, “Okay, I think I’d like to do this. How can I shape my career around something where design and societal impact come together in a positive way?”

Chad:

Wow. It’s so amazing you’re able to have the opportunity to do work like that, at that point in your career. How did that shape the work that you wanted to do going forward?

Minnie:

It’s a great question. And now, looking back on this project, I see all these things I did wrong. Oh, man! (laughs) I could have done so so many things differently.

Chad:

Yeah.

Minnie:

So, I look back on that work and I think what it did is it incited… it’s so easy to frame it this way now. But, if I look back I see it really incited a curiosity. I didn’t know that… I always thought of Design as beautiful book covers, right? And, really sexy apps that, you know, have all these cool motion graphics. And, I realized that Design can be… you can design systems, you can design programs, you can design experiences, and all of the things and experiences live around us are all designed. I’m preaching to the choir here, obviously.

Listen on

So, I think what I realized in that, I think it was about a year, it was from 24 to 25. See, I think it made me realize how much I didn’t know. You know? There were times when I’m this designer, almost right out of school, you know, and I’m in Bangladesh. And, you know, brand new culture, working with these young women, all of whom I think I had a really great connection with personally. But, that’s not always the, you know, it’s not really my job to become friends. It’s my job to create something meaningful. And I think at one point, one of the gals had come down with malaria. Excuse me, I was in Kenya, one of the girls had come down with malaria and I had to take her to the hospital. And, I’m sitting there in the hospital going, “What is my job right now?” You know, I didn’t realize that this… and I wrote a piece about it. It was just more of an internal piece I shared with the Frog Design Studio at the time. And, started asking a lot of questions.

You know, What does ethics look like? What is our role? When do we reach the limits of our role? Should we be everywhere all the time? You know? Is there an element of our profession that’s rooted in voyeurism, and is that a bad thing? Maybe I don’t need to go abroad to do any of this work. But, I didn’t have answers to any of these questions. I just started asking these questions on this initial project. And so, what was really, I think, for me, helpful and then thinking about what I want my career to look like, is trying to solve problems that bringing a skill set to the table as a creative, and making sure I was partnering with the right people to help me understand, like, the context. And, that’s one of the things I’m sure we’ll chat more about.

But, I think in design consulting, you know, we’re not experts on every topic. We have a skill set.

Chad:

Yeah. Hope.

Minnie:

You know, I think one of… there’s an article I’ve been given to a lot of my students called The Designers Bias. It’s written by a friend of mine, one of my mentors at Frog, actually, David Sherwin, who I don’t know if you all have run across his work, he’s great. And, it’s this great piece called The Designers Bias. And, some of the insights that came to me from this work was, he says this really interesting thing of a designer thinking that that everything can be solved with design is like a carpenter thinking everything can be solved with a hammer and a nail. And so, there’s a humble… there’s a humility that came from that work. Yeah. And that I, again, I’m still working on, you know, now I’m 10 years later, but it made me ask, What is our role and how can we create societal change? But, while still acknowledging that we’re one very, very small piece of a bigger puzzle.

Jp:

And, where did that insight take you eventually?

Minnie:

Tactically, IDEO had reached out. IDEO knows how to like, grab people when they’re, you know, fresh.

Jp:

What is IDEO, for people who don’t know?

Minnie:

Thank you.

IDEO and Frog Design are both design consulting firms. They’ve both been around for a long time, about 40 plus years. I think frog is 50, think IDEO is 40. They have been historically competitors of one another. Both of them have a really an interesting, kind of, claim to fame.

So, IDEO is one of the first companies that designed the Apple mouse. And, they were involved in the early days of the Silicon Valley. And, so now they’re one of these, I guess, big global design consulting firms. And, I had aspired to work there when I was in college. So, it was pretty wild that they reached out. And, they reached out, I was about, I think, 25 or 26, and asked if I’d be interested in working. I was just finishing up this work on the Girl Effect project, which was the one with young women. And, I wrestled with it for a while. The lesson learned there for me was that, just because someone wants you, you need to ask yourself, you know, do I want this? And, you’re young.

Jp:

I don’t mean to stop you here, but did you say the Girl Effect?

Minnie:

Yeah.

Jp:

I remember that campaign!

Minnie:

You do?! Yeah, that was the project.

Jp:

The animation, and… I remember the visuals for it.

Minnie:

Yeah! So, we didn’t do the visuals. Wieden+Kennedy did the visuals.

Jp:

Okay.

Minnie:

Wieden+Kennedy made that little viral video that everybody watched and then they hired Frog Design, where I worked, to actually do the leg work around developing the programming for it. And, that’s what I was brought into help do.

Jp:

Wow, that was amazing. That whole project was like, wow.

Minnie:

It was pretty wild. It really took me out of my comfort zone I went up, but I think again, I was this young gal who they were like, “She’s bubbly and full of energy. Let’s throw her in and use her as a way to help engage with these young women.” Yeah, I was kind of a near peer at that point. I think. So yeah.

Jp:

Anyway, sorry. No back to IDEO

Minnie:

It’s all good.

Yeah, I don’t know. They might have stumbled across the work I had done on that, or maybe just found me randomly. But, they reached out and I kind of hemmed and hawed. I couldn’t tell where where I wanted to be. I really liked what I was doing. But, I did like the idea of trying something new and being in San Francisco.

So, I eventually said yes, and came down here where we are now in San Francisco and, kind of, continued on that journey. I said upfront I want to work on this type of… these types of projects. And, only now, you know, looking back I realized how important it is. Especially in a big design firm with a lot of people who are super talented. You know? One project I worked on there is a… (chuckles) Next to me was a Harvard, someone who just finished getting their Harvard MBA and had started two companies, and on the other side of me was a literal rocket scientist who had landed the Mars Rover, and me.

All:

(laugh)

Minnie:

Okay.

Jp:

Perspective. Amazing.

Minnie:

What qualifies me to be on this project team?

And so, one thing I just said when I started, as I worked on it, you know, at that point a couple projects in this space of developing a social impact initiatives, and I’d like to keep doing that. And, I was a broken record. I kept saying this again and again.

Chad:

And, were they responsive to that? Or, was it a challenge at times?

Minnie:

It takes a while. Yeah. And then, in a big firm like that, to no fault of IDEO’s, it just takes a bit to, kind of, find your spot. It took about a year before I really found my groove. And then, the great thing is, in consulting once you do one project and people see you do another, and then you just become known for it.

Chad:

Yeah, it kind of feeds itself.

Minnie:

Yeah. So, I started to focus in on work with youth. In particular, I did everything from a reproductive health program, thinking about how young women can feel more comfortable accessing birth control, because it’s very scary and threatening. Think about your own experience when you’re 15. It’s not comfortable or designed all that well. To projects connected to thinking about how can we make college feel more engaging for first generation college students. And, kind of, everything in between. I got really lucky to work on such a broad spectrum of work.

Chad:

To pause in that period, since it seemed to be a very pivotal part of your career, so far. I’m curious how working in a space like that shaped your approach to design.

Minnie:

Hmm. Yeah. I must have worked on at least a dozen different teams in that span of time, at some points more. And, I think every project is a bit of a give and take. I’ve always thought this is true for both, you know, design work, and also just, you know, I do a bunch of work now in education. I think anywhere you go, there really shouldn’t be one person who’s telling everyone else what to do. And, the more I became like a leader at the company, and the more I was like supporting and managing teams, and helping, you know, bringing in new business, it became even truer in fact. And, that it’s not really the job of any one on a team to be like, “I have the answers. I’m here to lead.” But instead, every single person has a unique point of view. And, every person is bringing something really interesting to the conversation.

And so, what I realized over the years I was there, is if I can create a space where everybody is able to let their own set of skills, knowledge perspective kind of shine, like, it’s actually going to be the best… It’s going to not only feel good, like, we’re going to feel happy and fulfilled, but it’ll be so much better for the work. So, that was a big thing and collaboration was inherent, you know? Some introverts struggle because you’re really in the weeds with folks working through some of these big systemic challenges.

I think, having been in consulting for, you know, almost a decade, I was so used to this kind of rapid cycle of doing a project, and then doing another project, and then doing another project. And eventually, whether it be through my own fatigue or through perhaps, like, lessons I learned, I realized I had to start capturing what I had learned on each project and putting it somewhere.

So, about three years and I started doing this… building myself a little repository for myself, of all of the things I had learned on that project. And, for me, again, a lot of the work I do revolves around education and working with youth. So, I would say okay, here’s some things I learned about what it means to destigmatize reproductive health. And, here’s something that’s also important, is a sense of belonging. And so, I started building themes in some ways that then had insights, lesson learned, resources attached to it. And so, that’s been super helpful I think with specific to the consulting world because it’s so easy to move from thing to thing.

Chad:

Yeah.

Minnie:

And, never really realized what the through line is. So, that was a helpful thing I learned, from trial and error, of course.

Jp:

So, you’re doing self evaluations after each, like, annual review that you do? And, perhaps after every project?

Minnie:

Yeah. I mean, there’s two there’s two things to it. One, is just like a team review. How’d that go? How did everything, you know, sit for the team? What did we learn? Where did we grow?

But, what I’m sort of speaking to is a little bit more of my own personal, like, knowledge building. I wanted to make sure that when I finished a project, that learning that happened for me in the course of the experience, stayed somewhere and could be continued to be built on. So, that some of the bouncing around you do, and consulting felt more consistent, and felt like when I was being brought into projects, I could bring something more than just a cool set of design skills, but also some deep expertise around the content.

And so, that’s something that I think IDEO, and I think many design firms are doing a better job, at being really focused on how are we, like, not just bouncing in and out as creatives, but actually bringing a skill set and a set of body of knowledge around that area. But, that was something that, you know, was important to me, and I think, kind of was, in some ways, a hack, so that I wouldn’t forget. Yeah, because I have a bad memory.

Chad:

In some ways it, I mean… The first thing you’re talking about, it was just like, “Oh, well, you know, we were kind of always are taught to do this.” But, we were doing it in the approach of creating a portfolio, right? That one day, it will get us somewhere. But, in this sense, you’re almost creating a portfolio of your own knowledge and learnings…

Minnie:

Yeah.

Chad:

…to document and archive, like, everything you’ve taken away from each one of these projects you’ve worked on, not necessarily for the purpose of, like you know, sharing out to others but for your own kind of knowledge.

Jp:

Which I would say is what every ideal teacher is hoping that the student is doing.

Minnie & Chad:

(laugh)

Jp:

But, speaking from the teachers perspective, who does not do that himself? (laughs) I do not think I’ve ever met anyone that is a more perfect than you.

Minnie:

I should caveat… I have this weird existential feeling of, like, you know, “Everything’s going to disappear one day. I don’t want it to all disappear!” And so, I think consulting tends to mess with the mind of someone who has a disposition like I do. So, for me, it’s been, like, really, I think, almost a comfort to have something that helps me remember what I learned, and why, and how possibly it could be applicable on another project, or another piece of work.

And, I found increasingly, it has been one of those things that, yeah, really helps me. You know, it takes different forms. Sometimes I just literally sit down and write down a Google Doc other times I make a little presentation. Other times it’s just post-its in a room. But, it’s always good to have. I just feel more confident in myself. I’m not this blank slate coming into a new piece of work when I have a reminder of what that was. If that makes sense.

Jp:

Fascinating. Yeah. That, kind of, leads me to perhaps the next question of, you’re doing all these projects, you’re learning all of these things, are re-evaluating each time. Can you perhaps talk about how those processes have moved you towards other projects that perhaps you would not have done?

Minnie:

I guess maybe to answer that in a slightly different way. I think one of the biggest places has helped me is with teaching. You know, when I started teaching, three or four years ago, if I hadn’t done this, it would have been so hard to sit down and go, “What do I have to share with my students?” And, by sitting down and having done these many reflections throughout the course of my, you know, last five, six years, it was really helpful then to say, “Okay, here’s some themes and some topics.” You know?

And, in some ways that some of these things are very thematic. So, the topic of belonging comes up a lot in the work that I do. Like, what does it mean to belong? What does it mean to feel like you’re part of a community that supports you? Or, the topic of experimentation and helping people take a step in a direction where they can, you know, try something new? And, what does it mean to encourage people to experiment? Or, the topic of equity? Like, how are designers building equitable practices? And so, what’s been helpful, with regards to your question, is by capturing my own reflections, I think it’s helped me then talk about those, and, in fact, have other people…

I don’t see teaching as me just saying, “Here’s all this stuff I know, hope you enjoy.” But rather, giving folks an opportunity to build on that body of knowledge and saying, “Here’s some questions I have, what do you all think about this stuff?” So, it’s been kind of a give and take in that way.

Jp:

Do you find it amicable that you give them, “Here’s this body of knowledge that I know.” Are they challenging you, or questioning you to gain more insight, and then see how they have… what they have done with that knowledge and come back to, to add to your repository?

Minnie:

All of the time. I mean, every student is different and some folks are more, I think, it takes a while for them to open up and to ask questions or to share their perspective. Others come in real hot, you know? Like, they have a strong opinion and want to be a provocateur, like they want to kinda, you know… (laughs) I’m sure you both can relate being teachers, as well.

And, I think at first, I felt sometimes challenged and a little frustrated that I was being challenged and it’s still tough. You know, if a student’s like, “That’s not right, you’re wrong.” Like, “Okay.” So, I think, increasingly I’ve tried less and less to say, “Here are the facts,” or “Here’s what you need to know.” And rather, “Here are the questions that I’m working on.” Almost inviting those perspectives.

And yeah, all the time. I mean, I have some students who, you know, work in the healthcare industry, and they talk about… when we think about ethics and design, one of my students was like, “Well, you know, doctors take a hippocratic oath. But, designers don’t take anything like that. And we’re literally designing the world around us.”

Chad:

Yeah. Well, architects take or have a set of principles as well.

Minnie:

Yeah, they do. And, we don’t guys!

Jp:

Well, that’s a hot topic, right there. I mean, how many decades, now, have we been talking about that?

Minnie:

Right? They don’t want to feel controlled. And, I think that’s the tricky thing with the creative craft, or industry that we’ve all selected, which is rooted in creativity. You know, if you ask an artist to take a hippocratic oath, they’d be like, “No way!” Like, “Art is to provoke.”

Chad:

I mean, it also goes to talk about maybe, we’re feeling an increased responsibility in design as design has gained a higher place in the world.

Minnie:

Yeah.

Chad:

And, the respect we’ve been wanting. And, also in the fact that, like, design’s reach is expanding beyond just the traditional physical form, artifact. It’s going into all these areas of less concrete things. I don’t know what your thoughts are on that.

Minnie:

It’s such an interesting… I don’t know if you all feel this way. But, it feels like slightly over a decade ago, I was looking at beautiful typography, and posters, and books, and going, “Wow.” Like, “This makes me feel great. This will be the sum of my career.”

Now, we’re in this fuzzy place where, you know, companies, again here in the Bay Area, like their claim to fame is they’re a design lead company, right? Like no longer engineers are the ones running the show. It’s, like, designers. And it’s, in many ways, I think thrust us into the spotlight, and… I didn’t go to school for this. Like, I wasn’t trained to talk about the role that we play in society. And, so yeah.

To talk to both of your questions, I think understanding the role that we play, again, creativity, and thinking about things in new ways is incredibly valuable. I wouldn’t keep getting up in the morning as a designer, if I didn’t believe that. But, I do think asking, are we looking to serve our own ego? Do we want to add another notch in our belt and say, you know, we worked with this client, or we had this. Or, are we really truly looking to actually affect systemic change? Because in which case, it’s probably us that’s not at the center of that. We may be a set of hands. We may be somebody that’s there to enable, or teach, or bring one very specific set of tools. But, we’re most likely not the person that’s standing on the podium going, “Let me announce to you this new and improved experience,” right? There’s probably a lot of people that know the space better than we do so. So, you know, it’s been on my mind a lot these last couple years, especially with these bigger questions around equity and privilege, and what does that mean? And so, I think, anyway, I could go on and on.

But, I think that to your question about what does it look like to be designing things that are not living physically in the world, but our systems or our experiences, we have to ask, why are we doing it? And, what do we hope to achieve?

Chad:

Where are you in your journey today?

Minnie:

About two years ago, I did, probably the scariest thing I’ve ever done in my career, and said to IDEO, I have gained so much from my time here, and I wonder what it would be like for me to do this in a way that… I see a need. The need was that a lot of the clients I was working with, you know, were foundations or were nonprofits. And, they wanted the design talent or at least somebody who is leading that project to stick around, stay and support the team after the work was over, and it’s really tricky to do that when you’re in a consulting agency. And, in addition, I was just curious. As I mentioned earlier, I didn’t ever take a breath. I didn’t take a year after school and go do a thing, you know. I was like, thrown in and moved pretty fast. So, I realized that I would never know what it was to do that, unless I took a risk and just tried. Much to my surprise, bless the heart of the folks that work at IDEO. They were like, “You know, what? We support you. And, in fact, if you’re comfortable, we’d love to have you stay on as an advisor,” for one of these projects that I had actually been leading for about two years at that point. So, it really felt like a win-win. I got super lucky. I know it’s not that normal. But, I went out on my own and started independently consulting.

The anchor point for the work I did, I had two requirements for the kind of work I wanted to take on. One was that I wanted it to be something connected to social impact and specifically education and youth which had been the area I’d been focused on for a long time. And, I wanted to make sure that whoever I was partnering with wasn’t just having me come in, drop an idea, and then leave. I wanted to figure out ways that I could co-design and co-collaborate with my clients.

It was, in all honesty, I think, took on a little too much. But, it was such a great learning experience. Like, I got to work on projects, incredible projects. I got to work on a juvenile justice project that lasted a year where I was thinking about how can we redesign what it feels like for young adults, specifically 18 through 21 when they exit custody, have system involved, to not just learn the law, because right now the programming is such that they’re, you know, in probation, and they have to learn the law. But, actually, like, learn their rights. Because so rarely did they see their role in it. They’re just butting up against a system that they feel has been against them. So, it was super cool. Like, I set up with a team. I had a few folks I was with. We set up a program where we got to go in custody and the kids, the youth, were really the ones doing the design. We were just there and kind of bringing in a series of questions. And then, every week I would go home, like, work my little fingers to the bone, my team also would be there, and we would bring something back. Okay, “What is it? How does this feel?” “Eh. It’s good, but you know, you could fix it here.” And, okay. Try again. Okay, go back here. “How does this feel?” And, we did this like 12 different times. Like, it was a pretty cool process to mimic. And, at the end of the day, I said to every one of the youth I worked with, there was probably about 25 youth at that point that we’d collaborated with, you know, “You’re the designer. You’re my client. I got a set of skills that I went to school for, but, like, you’re the ones designing this.” And, we partnered with an incredible organization, if anyone’s interested is called Fresh Lifelines for Youth. They’re based out of San Jose. And so, this is the kind of work I got to do.

And, one of the many projects I was able to support was this program called The Purpose Project, which was what I was doing out of IDEO. And what’s been interesting about that as a project is that it’s focused on developing 21st century skills and youth, and thinking about how do we build skills like empathy, and creativity, and storytelling, and community impact. And so, in some ways, I mentioned already how I had this laundry list of things I’m learning, every time I learned something new, since I was running this program, I would just channel it right on into The Purpose Project. And so, it was a really weird/unique model to mimic for last year.

Jp:

That’s amazing. That is so amazing.

Minnie:

(laughs) It’s a bit hard to explain. It’s kind of a mouthful. But, it was really cool to have a place that was almost a little bit like my own little research incubator, again with an incredible team, to say, “Alright, what have we learned about, like again, belonging on this project? Let’s add it in.

Chad:

So, you’ve talked a lot about, kind of, designing in the space for social impact and design for good (making air quotes there). That can be a really sensitive space to operate in. And, you’ve talked a lot about motivation being a really big one. But, what are other, kind of, special considerations that you feel are needed to really operate responsibly in that space?

Minnie:

This is… How much time do we have? No, I’m just kidding.

Minnie & Chad:

(laugh)

Chad:

Yeah. No, yeah.

Minnie:

No. This is, I think, a conversation happening in a lot of places. And so, I have, you know, one lens which is the first thing I was going to talk about, which is bias. Which, I’ll try to share a couple things that I think are interesting resources and tools. And know that this is a big one, right? We’re working on this all, I think, together as a community.

The first thing that I always encourage folks to think about is to understand bias. I don’t know how embedded it is in the world of certain design schools. But, I know it’s one of the things I spend a lot of time working on with my students is understanding bias. It comes into play, not only working in like, you know, with the folks that we’re looking to serve, but also, you know, on a design team. We are playing god in some ways, right? We’re designing things. We’re behind the curtain, and we’re putting a thing out in the world. And so, when you’re looking at the research you’re doing, and you’re synthesizing it, there’s inherently a bias in what you choose to make and why you choose to make it. And so, it’s not expected that you’re going to remove all bias. In fact, it’s darn near impossible to do that. But, to be really conscious of our biases, and where those come from. When we insert ourselves into new environment, we’re inherently changing that environment. And so, knowing what we’re bringing with us is one thing, I really always want to stress that designers think about, and anyone really. But, I think designers in particular.

A couple other things that have just helped me a lot and I would encourage folks to look into… Historically with the process of human centered design, which is, kind of, a big part of IDEO, and Frog, and a lot of design firms, the first phase is research, and going in and understanding the world of the folks we’re looking to design for. But, to that story I mentioned about, you know, there’s a young woman who has malaria. Now I’m in the hospital, even though I thought I was a designer. Uh… I wasn’t prepared to manage or support a traumatic experience.

Chad:

Yeah.

Minnie:

I didn’t have a single tool in my toolbox, at that point. I just did my best based on intuition. And, since then, I’ve done a lot of classes on trauma informed care. And, I think the big aspect of research that I feel like we may have been getting wrong for quite some time is that it’s a win if we go in and bring people to tears and get a really emotional story from them. Actually, we might be re-triggering something that’s really not our place to do. And so, understanding what purpose is that serving? What are we trying to achieve? By going in and talking with people? Is there other ways we can be doing our research than just sitting in someone’s home and asking them these super personal questions? Can we be looking more to learn from, you know… There’s all this interesting, sort of, work being done with data, and understanding what does data tell us? And, we can learn a lot, you know? Look at Okay, Cupid. There’s all kinds of interesting data. And, nobody’s having to do anything dramatic in order for us to learn about these interesting algorithms that support a personal part of one’s life.

So, I think understanding how we can be super conscious in our research to not insert ourselves, and disrupt, and do more harm than good.

I could go on, but I think the last one I’ll sort of speak to which has been really helpful for me is, you know, we’ve talked about co-design for a long time. You know, I think the term co-design speaks to this idea of collaborating with our end user to design something. I have tried my best to take it one step further and not just co-design but actually build capacity, which effectively means, like, how am I teaching the skills I’m using while I go through my process? So, when I look at working with this many cases, young people, my hope is that they walk away with a set of skills, and a set of tools. So, I learn better how I can make an experience that’s going to bring them value, and they learn, “Oh, I can also do this. This is not so special, that I’m not allowed to be involved.”

And, that’s really the big shift I’ve had in the past, I’d say, you know, 5 to 10 years is, I’m not just going to insert myself and solve all the problems. There’s no way I can. But, what I can do is bring a new set of tools and hope that that does bring value to the environment I’m working in, or the community that I’m trying to serve.

Jp:

So Minnie, the last thing that we like to conclude with are some recommendations from our guest. If you’re up for it, we’ve got a couple of recommendations we are typically are asking this season.

Minnie:

Sure.

Chad:

So, I always selfishly ask for a good reading. So, is there anything that, a book, or an article, or even audio book, if you listen, that you’ve read or listened to lately that you felt made an impact on you that maybe hasn’t gotten enough play yet, or should be more widely consumed?

Minnie:

It’s not a book, but it is a framework, and a toolkit, that I think is really interesting. I’m not sure if y’all have heard of Antionette Carroll. She founded an organization called Creative Reaction Lab, which was in response to…

Jp:

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Minnie:

You’ve heard of them? It was a response to all of the challenges associated with, you know, all these young black men being shot, and how his design responding? And, she and her team created this really great resource called the Equity Design Toolkit. And, it has all of these really interesting lenses that designers can start thinking about, like history and trauma, that we just don’t think about. So, whenever they’re starting to look into this space, I always recommend that as a really great tool. Yeah, she’s she’s a wonderful kind of thought leader in this space.

Jp:

Awesome. Thank you.

My recommendation that I’m asking people, we are here in San Francisco for the season, what would be your recommendation of a place that is culturally significant, or inspiring, or something… it could be design related, so what have you, that you would say we should see?

Minnie:

Man! Well, there’s a couple things. I am a nature person. I always get my… We’re in my home in the woods, right now. I get a lot of my sort of inspiration from going back into nature. So, the Presidio has this pretty cool walk, actually. The Presidio is kind of this old, like a bunch of barracks from the war, and it’s since been turned into this sort of green space. And, there’s this neat walk that connects four Andy Goldsworthy installations. He’s a sculpture artist who takes natural found materials. And it’s, I think, a three or four mile walk. And, at each corner, you can see one of these really interesting installations.

Jp:

Oh, interesting. Yeah, yeah, fun.

Minnie:

You’re welcome.

Chad:

Over the years, you’ve traveled a lot, both for work and outside of work, I imagine. What is, in your mind, one of the best travel destinations to broaden your perspective?

Minnie:

Great question. And yes, I’m almost having to scan through all the different places.

Um, can I give you two?

Chad:

Of course.

Minnie:

Alright. Well, one is the place I teach in the summer, so I know it well. And, I go to Copenhagen a lot. I think Denmark is historically a very design centered place. It’s a really interesting place, just to, kind of, get inspired if you’re kind of a quintessential designer and looking at the world of Scandinavian design. It’s also interesting, because it’s relatively homogenous. And, there’s a lot of systems right now being done in Scandinavia to think about how to create a more inclusive culture. So, I think there’s a nice tension that is being talked about, which is great. And, it’s also just lovely to see what the history has afforded.

The other place that I think is, kind of, a wild place to be. But, pretty cool if you’re a designer is, you know, India is a pretty wild spot. It’s super stimulating to the senses; sound, sight, touch, everywhere you go. It’s very stimulating. But, I think it’s an environment where we in the U.S. often are so, you know, we don’t give ourselves enough space to, kind of, really use the senses as a foundation for design. And, I think when I was there, I was constantly being inspired by kind of the every sense being so, so, so stimulated all the time.

So, two very different countries. But, I have found a new way of thinking from both of these places.

Chad:

That’s wonderful.

Jp:

Awesome. And finally, I am coming back from sabbatical this year, and I’m thinking of all the things that I want my students to do. A recommendation of how I can get my students to do more, you seem to have just, like, have all these things. How do I get them to do more things?

Minnie:

That is a great question. One of the things that I’ve been working pretty hard to both reflect on my own journey and also to speak with students about that I work on work with, is actually asking them how to slow down. I think historically, we have been on this crazy, I don’t know, This is Design School is the name of this podcast. Design school, for me, was a whirlwind. I remember late nights. I remember fearing feeling foggy. You know, all about the output, always all about the output. And, the reflection that I’ve now had after, you know, a few years of kind of looking back on this time and also working with students now is, I think we actually have to ask young people, especially young designers to take a step back and ask, you know, what is this in service of? And, where am I pointed? We’re conditioned to think we need a portfolio at the end of school. And then, we need something to show for our work. But actually, a lot of the learning that happens is inherently within. And so, giving your students, or any students space to reflect, move slowly understand a methodology and a process, I think, is the the tricky way of answering your question.

Jp:

No, by all means. I appreciate that. I think seeing how you have done it is… Perhaps I need to rethink my own methodology.

Minnie:

(laughs)

Chad:

Minnie, thank you so much for sitting down and chatting with us. I’m so glad we were able to reconnect after several years.

Jp:

Yeah, it was an honor and a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Minnie:

Thank you both for coming to my little home in the woods and having a conversation. Good luck. And, you guys, it’s great to talk with you as well.

Jp:

Yeah, thanks.

Chad:

Thanks.