On this episode, we talked with Annabelle Gould, an Associate Professor in the Division of Design at the School of Art, Art History, and Design at the University of Washington in Seattle. Annabelle talks about the balance between being a designer and an educator, about how experimentation and the details of craft are critical to the design process, and the importance of finding your authentic purpose and voice in the ever broadening field of design.

---

Chad:

Annabelle Gould, thanks so much for joining us on This is Design School today. I’m really excited to talk to you and hear more about your story that I never got to learn when I was in grad school with you.

Annabelle:

Thanks for having me.

Chad:

So, I wanted to start off the conversation just by hearing what your story in design was. How did you find design?

Annabelle:

Well, I actually thought I wanted to be an architect and I didn’t actually know what design was. I’d never heard of design. But, I went to the College of Design, which was at NC State in Raleigh. And, I was lucky enough there in my first year that they make you do projects in all the different disciplines. So, there’s landscape architecture, graphic design, etc. And, we did a project, I think I must have been interpreting an art movement. And, it was the color and the letters… I thought, “Wow! This is cool.” And, it just resonated with me much more than architecture. And so, that was kind of my path. I was lucky enough that the College of Design is a pretty strong graphic design program and so… Yeah. I graduated and then went on to New York. Worked there for four years doing print work for financial clients at the time, JP Morgan, Oppenheimer Funds, etc. They were all kind of just spending a lot of money on mutual funds. So, you learned a lot about printing and that kind of thing. And, that was the time when David Carson became, sort of, the coolest designer that everybody wanted to be. I think the line to see him when he came to the Cooper Hewitt was wrapped around the block multiple times to get in and hear him talk about his view on Design. I remember thinking like, “That’s who I want to be, is David Carson.” When, in fact, I’m nowhere close to David Carson, and I couldn’t design my way out of a paper bag if I had to be like him. But then, I decided I want to go to grad school. And, both of my parents are teachers, so I knew that eventually I’d want to teach. But, it felt like the right time to go to grad school. And, Cranbrook, which is where a number of my teachers at NC State had gone, was where I thought I’d go. And, on paper, Yale actually seems like a better fit, but I ended up at Cranbrook. I’m really happy I went there. But, I think I expected to go to Cranbrook and turn into David Carson, and that didn’t happen either. And, that’s okay. I just, sort of… You realize more and more what your roots are. So, yeah. I came out in the height of, kind of, the dot-com boom, and still loved print. So, I tried to do print and web, and that took me to LA. And then, straddled that world for a while. And then, I came up to UW to teach.

Chad:

Did you know you wanted to teach when you went to grad school?

Annabelle:

I think I did. I don’t think I thought about it as a full time thing. I think I liked professional practice, I’ve always liked practice. So, actually that’s the reason I came to UW is faculty there are meant to do research of some kind, and so I would not have gone to a school where you just teach. I’d felt pretty strongly that you need to be rooted in some area of the discipline outside of teaching. Otherwise, I’m not doing my students much good. So, I really appreciated the fact that at least when I came to UW, it was clear you’re expected to practice. You’re expected to do something within the discipline as well. So, that’s been good.

I taught at Art Center when I was in LA. So, I would consult two days a week, design books another day, and then teach at Art Center and Otis. And so, that was good. I don’t know what in grad school you learn that helps you be a teacher, though. I think that’s sort of a question. Like, what qualifies me to teach? What qualifies you to teach, Chad, after going through our grad program? Is it just the act of teaching another class? So… One of my longtime mentors, Meredith Davis, she has a degree in Education. Like, what on Earth makes us qualified after grad school to teach? It’s a strange… That’s not how elementary school teachers work. So, what is it that makes us teach? I’m not sure. Yeah, and even now as a longtime educator, Karen [Cheng] and I’ve had this debate before, or discussion. If you ask me what I do, I’ll tell you I’m a Designer and I happen to teach. Karen will identify herself as an educator who happens to be in Design. So, I’d still, even though my job since 2003, has been a Professor in the University of Washington, I still think of myself as a Designer first.

Jp:

Right.

Annabelle:

Yeah. And, that’s just… The education part of it is extremely important to me. But, I don’t know what qualifies me to be a teacher. And, you know, we bring in guests all the time, and there is there is a difference. I think the professionals that come in, maybe they’re not as comfortable with the timing of a critique, or responding to students needs, or recognizing what sort of feedback they need to give in a way that… I don’t know if the students, because at the University of Washington, we have the same group of students multiple times, so they come to know us, like us, hate us, whatever it is. They’re stuck with us for multiple classes.

Jp:

(laughs)

Annabelle:

And so, there’s just a different vibe being in a community where you’re having the same students over and over again.

Jp:

So, you identify as a Designer first, but an educator second. How did that play a role in being part of the AIGA Design Educators Committee?

Annabelle:

Yeah. So, I was on the DEC, Design Educators Community Steering Committee from… For about five years. I rolled off last year and I was the co-chair for two years. And, it’s an interesting way to connect with other educators who all come from very different programs. And, this is where you start to see how many more design programs that are out there now compared to even when I went to school, and the needs are very different. You know, you’ve got people who are teaching by themselves in the middle of no man’s land, someone in a community college, someone who’s doing online things, and the needs are quite diverse. And, that’s been a challenge. I mean, I think I’m starting to, sort of, realize how much I’m doing in design education, but I take it for granted that I’m still thinking personally, like, “What’s the next book I’m going to design? What’s the next thing I’m going to do?” Because, I feel like that’s where I should be contributing. And, I forget that I see 24 kids, you know, Monday, Wednesday, you know, twice a week and for a number of years. And, that that is where my impact can be, or that I’m training that group, and that group should be the ones I should be mostly focused on. That’s not to say I don’t care, or that I phone it in, in any way. I just think, for me personally, there’s some satisfaction in still making things. And, I find, as a teacher, I love watching what the students can make, but I miss making myself. So, back to the AIGA question. I enjoyed connecting with people. You know, it’s a crazy kind of phone call once a month. You’ve got 10 people, kind of, talking over one another. The common goal, of course, is to advance Design education, you know, within a AIGA. And so, you know, it’s been an interesting group of people. It’s been nice to meet people that are in different programs.

Jp:

I, kind of, admire the way that you identify yourself, as well as the way that you have been engaged with AIGA all of these years. That, being a designer first is being a teacher, or being an educator, because you have to be skilled in what you do. You have to be a master of what you do. And, those that actually do it are the ones that are true professors—the ones that can really say, “Here’s how it’s happening right now because I’m in it, and this is what you should know.”

Annabelle:

Well, there’s a quote that I enjoyed. I forgot who I can attribute this to. But, it was, sort of, to teach is to think twice. Because, you have to know this stuff, but then you have to be able to explain it to someone else and that is often the challenge of… I’ve had creative directors before I became a teacher, and it was like, “It’s not right. I can’t tell you why it’s not right. But, it’s just not right.” And, that’s not super useful feedback for a student or for anybody. And so, being able to articulate to someone, like, “Think about this, this, or this.” And, to be able to do it in a really short amount of time (laughs), which you can appreciate, Chad. When you have 60 students, twice a week, how do you, kind of, reach each and say it succinctly. So, I think overtime I’ve probably gotten better at that, being able to recognize it. But also, there’s a challenge of, sort of, bite your tongue. Like, it would be easy in critique, and you probably seen this at the dinner table when you’re with a group of friends, there’s probably someone that’s always quick to make the comment or jump in, and then there’s other people that, sort of, sit back and wait, and then, you know, make a comment. And, I try not to be the one that jumps in right away, I try to make the students talk first. But, there’s other educators that jump right in, and it’s just that fine balance of making the students figure things out first before you come in. There’s still that feeling, and Chad and Jp I imagine you feel this too, that students, especially early on, feel like you have the right answer and you’re just waiting to give them the right answer. And, the more I teach, the… I mean, I can tell you, sort of, best practices in my experience. But, I don’t have the answer, nor do I want to have the answer. That’s a little boring.

Jp:

I’ve come to explaining to the students at the ends after they’ve given the critique, I tell them, “So, my personal opinion…” And then, I continue, “Now, professionally, here’s what you should write.” Or, “Here’s what you should say.” Or, “Here is what is common practice.” So, that way they understand that I have a personal bias that I am expressing to you, so you should know do not follow me just because I’m saying it. But, hear me, here’s why I’m doing it. And then, here is me, as an educator, telling you here’s the research to do or to experience what… Well, you should in order to make your own decisions. And, I’ve found that it’s starting to teeter closer to them thinking of me as one of the students’ voices and not just the one-on-high giving them the answer.

Annabelle:

And, have you found that different levels of students respond to that? Like, the freshmen and sophomores seem very concerned with, kind of, “What’s their grade? What’s going to happen.” You know, “Am I going to get into the program?” By senior year, I think they’ve tired of us. I view a student, you know, even by this is, what spring quarter now? So, the students are getting ready to go out, and… I think the best success is a student where I’m thinking, “You don’t really need me anymore. You’re ready. You can make the jump.” I think I can always critique ’til the cows come home, typography, and color, and composition. But, I think there’s some students, it’s pretty satisfying that you can just go, like, “They’ve learned all they can for me. It’s time to move on.”

Chad:

Ready to fly from the nest.

Annabelle:

Yeah.

Jp:

Yeah.

Annabelle:

Well, we’re kicking ’em out in June whether they want to or not!

Jp:

I tell the seniors, especially because it’s a smaller group of students in that class, that by the time that they get here the comfort and the hand holding that they have received in the earlier stages is not in here. This one is the criticism. This is highly critical of everything you’re doing, and you should not expect the praise. You should assume there is praise by the fact that I am critical at the way you look at things. And, it takes a couple of weeks to get through that. But, after a while, they understand it and I think they expect that of each other at that point, as well.

Annabelle:

Yeah.

Jp:

I think when Chad was one of my students, he was a good example of that. Once you got to a certain level, it’s like, “Why are you looking for his approval when you should be looking for him to find the mistake in order to make you better.”

Annabelle:

Yeah, there’s a book that’s one of the Paul Arden little small books that has these little phrases in there. But, in there one of them is, and I give this to the sophomores and I remind them of that over the years, is like, “Seek criticism, not praise.” So, I get really tired of hearing, and we talk about this with each class, don’t tell us what you like. It’s not about like, it’s about whether it works or not, and whether it functions, does it satisfy the criteria, and beyond that, is it engaging? You know, students are always like, “I really like how that’s done.” Or, “I like those.” Like, just, who cares? It’s not about that. But, you should want the criticism and not the praise, that’s how it gets better.

Chad:

Well, but at the end of the day, like, I always think that there’s room for both. Because, the magic in design, right, comes from all of those different levels working together. Like, all the way down from like the high level system of it, all the way down to the rag, and the joy, and things looking nice, right? Like, that to me is all part of the magic. So, we have to figure out how not to lose the craft of it.

Annabelle:

I guess I feel like there is more experimentation happening. I think it’s got a lot to do with technology, how ideas are being presented, code. I’m not sure. Maybe there aren’t any new ways to present, you know, a poster. It’s not about a poster, really, anymore. I think systems are a big part of it. Reaching people. So, it’s words, it’s ideas more than just form.

Chad:

And, it also tracks with new mediums. It’s like, web is getting to a certain point where it has patterns in places that people expect so there’s a little less room… I mean, I feel that professionally, oftentimes it’s like I get I get stuck, and I’m like, “Oh, this has to go here. This has to go here.” To make it usable, right? Or, at least easily usable?

Annabelle:

Yeah.

Chad:

But then, you know, there’s these other new mediums, cropping up that, you know, I feel like there is experimentation that we don’t know what to do with.

Annabelle:

Right.

Chad:

AR, VR, XR, or whatever you want to call it, but… And, those are just, I think even I as a designer, I’m like, “Well, I’m not sure I know what to do with that, yet.”

Annabelle:

Yeah. And, what your social responsibility is, too. I mean, like I said, I was in the dot-com boom in the late 90s, and this was when gobs of money was being thrown at websites. And our job was to, sort of, find the trickiest, coolest way to create the navigation. So, when eBay came out and it was just a list of links across the top, it was like, “Wow! That’s so boring. How could people want that?” But then, you had the opposite, which probably no one will remember, which was boo.com. It was this website for clothing and sort of tons of money being spent. They were flying on the Concorde back and forth to London. And, when it went launch, no one could use the site ’cause no one could figure out how to navigate it.

Jp:

Yeah.

Annabelle:

And so now, I think it was a number of years ago, I gave a talk about how you could point to any number of companies’ websites, Facebook, AirBNB, Amazon, they all had the large hero shot and nav across the top, and it’s become kind of that standard templatized look. And, it works. People know where to go to find things. It’s just not very interesting anymore. But, maybe that’s what it is. It’s utility. My colleague will say the web is dead. One of my colleagues in the interaction program is like, “The web is dead. Nobody uses the web anymore.” And yet, we still gotta teach our students. They’re still using websites on a regular basis. So, students have to learn that part, but I think they view it as like, “That’s easy.” But, when they get in and design it, it never looks very good when they first do it. So, it’s sort of learning to walk before you can run, I guess. And, you know, we’re hounding our students about the rag, when you get on the web you can’t worry about that. I had a student asked me the other day, “How do I control this?” And, I said, “You don’t!”

Chad:

At least not yet. One day, maybe.

Annabelle:

Yeah, it’s a lot to know. I joke, “I’m not sure I could have gotten into design school now.” As much as students, kind of, need to know, and need to be adept at technology. And, it’s hard to be a good technologist and a designer at the same time. I think companies continue to look for that person, the unicorn. It’s hard.

Jp:

I wonder that, going back to my question of the experimentation, I’m seeing that at my school as well, that there’s not as much innovation or experimentation as there used to be. And, I wonder if there’s a technological emptiness, or technological gap, that is happening right now. Where we know how to use the current technology and we’ve accepted the templates of how to use the current technology, and there is this very high threshold to learn AR/VR, and we’re not there yet. And so, the students are becoming stagnant of, “I know how to do this, I will learn to do this, and I can get a job in doing this, and that’s what I will do.” And, I think in that way, I too am about the technique, I’m about the craft of at all, and I get bogged down with the details of stuff. So, what I tell myself at night is that focusing on the details, focusing on the rag, focusing on the hyphens, teaching how to use hyphens appropriately and leading, is about learning the techniques of craftsmanship, of quality, of appreciation for quality. And, hopefully they can translate that out of typography, out of graphic design, visual communication, and into anything else that they want to learn in their lives.

Annabelle:

Yeah. I mean, there’s a certain rigor that comes with all of that. I teach a sophomore type class. It’s 60 students. It’ll all be interaction, industrial design, and VCD students. And, in there, it does feel like a rules class. Eight to 12 words per line. You need an en dash between your dates. You know, you’re leading should be X amount versus type size X height, etc. And, I think the students seem to really respond to that. In some ways I feel like I’m this hardcore kind of task master. But, they seem to, sort of, get it. Like, “I’m learning rules. These are things I can actually see. And, I can see that they make a difference.” I have had people come to me with books that are printed by well known typographers and say, “Is that a good rag?” And, I will say, “Well no, it’s not.” So, in the end, you can see the point. And, it’s like, “Well, you can know what a good rag is, but it isn’t always applied.” Which is, you know, a good rag is not going to save the world, and it’s not going to make somebody’s day better—maybe just mine. ’Cause, I’ll see it and I’ll appreciate it. But, I think it’s what you strive for. And, as you say, it’s what you should look to have all your design work be that level of detail.

Chad:

I was going to say, you know, it’s interesting that I feel like it’s the level of detail that got Design to where it is today, right? We’ve been talking about how design has gotten this larger place in the world, and the demand for it is so huge. But, at the same time, it’s lost its experimentation in that, which is what gets us to that innovative state. It’s just ironic that, in some ways.

Annabelle:

Well, I think there’s a push now. I’m a bit cynical about this. But, there’s a lot of companies that are, sort of, on board with design thinking. And so, they want designers in these roles. And, you know, it’s hard for me to separate myself, I’m a designer, therefore I think. So, what is it that we as designers do that seems so unique, or so novel, or so interesting for all these companies that are hiring our students? You know, when I came out of undergrad, Pentagram was where I thought I needed to go. You went to design studio. And now, most of our graduates are headed to corporations. You know, the Facebooks, the AirBNBs. It’s the Pinterests. The Amazons, The Microsofts. And, that would never have been where an undergrad would go. It’s terrific that all of these companies are seeing the value of design. And yes, you can be a product designer, a visual designer, UX designer, UI Designer, there’s all kinds of different designers you could be. But, I think what we bring to the table, whatever job we’re in, is the ability to iterate, the ability to try things to talk about them, the whole critique culture, which is something we’re just steeped in in undergrad. And, you know, as you said, you talk about things, and you critique them endlessly.

And, I almost feel badly telling students, clueing them in… You know, “You’re probably not going to have that level of critique when you get outta here and you go to some of these other places. You might brace yourself going to your manager, or your boss, showing them your ideas and they’ll be like, ‘yeah, that looks good.’ And move on.” I’m not… That doesn’t happen all of the time. But, I think there are students who come back and say, “I miss this place!” And, I think what they miss is critique. Maybe not the all-nighter part of it. But, I think they miss the discussion.

Jp:

I think that’s what drove me back to graduate school, was two years without someone telling me, “Oh, you should not do this.” Or, “You need to put more time into this.” Or, what have you. And, getting the praise, and the feeling that the praise is appreciated. But, there’s so much more to it.

Annabelle:

Yeah. I mean, I… There are days when I’m tired and, you know, “Ahh, I’ve got to go to school.” But, the second I’m there, it’s really exciting and invigorating to talk to students about what they’re doing. But, I don’t know that they’re always excited and invigorated. But it’s kind of… I mean, I’m not designing everyday. I’m, sort of, in that role maybe, as you… Creative Director, kind of, managing things. I mean, my fingers aren’t pushing pixels around as much as I’d like them to be. But, it’s really exciting to see students go from, you know, not knowing much to being just really capable students. And, that’s pretty satisfying. And, UW has a lot of great alumn out there, you know, school is just one part of it.

I think when I graduated I had assumed I had learned everything there was, and I could just go be a creative director at Pentagram, and that would be fine. And, you just forget that you’ve barely started learning, and every job is a learning experience. They should be learning your whole life.

Chad:

I think that’s one of the joys and the follies I’ve always felt in myself of learning Design is having that critique culture ingrained in you, it seeps into every aspect of your life for better of worse. (laughs)

Annabelle:

It does.

Chad:

So, sometimes it’s really hard to take a look back and focus on what’s actually, what here is doing well, whether that’s the program itself, or anything.

Annabelle:

Yeah. When I went to… So, when I went to grad school at Cranbrook. You know, and like I said, I was expecting to become something completely different. In the end, I really like rigor. I like discipline. I wouldn’t call myself a Swiss typographer in any way, but I’m certainly not a radical typographer. And, there is a nice quote, I think it was Kathy McCoy that said, “Look for an evolution, not revolution.” And, I think what Cranbrook, as a grad program, taught me was just to be more open to ideas. It wasn’t a, sort of, radical formal shift in any way that I worked. It was just me being more like, “Okay, I hear you. Let’s talk about that direction or that idea.” I hope that I can instill that in my classes. I’ve had other colleagues who, not there now, but are very much, the work should look a certain way. And, there are 12 portfolios that look like they all came out of one class. And, I do not view that as a success in any way or any way to measure. I don’t need 24 Annabelle junior designers out there. Like, that’s not very interesting for them, and it’s not very useful for me.

Jp:

Oh, definitely.

Annabelle:

So, I would much rather a student, kind of, find their way into a project, into an assignment, and put their own stamp on it. Still with a good rag, still good kerning. But, you know, what is their personal perspective? And, more and more our students are really diverse. You know, our students are coming from different socioeconomic backgrounds, from different religious backgrounds, from different countries. They bring different experiences. It’s no longer a group of 22 students that are from Seattle. They’re from all over. So, it’s our, kind of, responsibility to be a little more aware of kind of what the issues are these people might be facing, and to try and create projects, and environments, and classroom experiences that allow everyone to have a response to something, rather than feel like it’s one answer out there, and your just, “I know what it is, and you’re all trying to figure out what it is to satisfy me.”

Chad:

Is there a place or, you know, a place for discussion or learning from other educators that you’ve found has been good to share some of those learnings? Whether it be exercises you’ve done in class, or things that you’ve learned along the way?

Annabelle:

Yeah! Well, there’s a teaching resource that I’ve been creating over a number of years. It was through AIGA, and it really stemmed from, sort of, interesting and maybe you can appreciate this as educators, too. It can be kind of lonely sometimes when you’re creating projects. Like, there’s an enormous amount of autonomy. What you do in your class, no one really is standing over you on a day-to-day basis watching what you’re doing. And so, you can evaluate at the end whether the project was a success or not, but I have felt, like, overtime I’ve really needed a space where I could see what other people were doing.

And so, there’s this teaching resource that I created. It just launched. It’s a website, teachingresource.aiga.org, for all you educators out there, where you can post assignments that you’ve done in class, and reflections, but also, deliverables. The impetus for this is that there are places where you can go to get, for me personally as a longtime educator, I sometimes need inspiration for a class. Like, I know I’m teaching a type class, but I don’t want to do the same project I’ve done before. So, where can I go? I can go to other schools’ websites and see their galleries, but then I just see the finished product and I don’t really know what the assignment was. Or, there’s a few books out there that have assignments, but they don’t have any of the results. And so, the whole point of this resource is to be able to see some sample images, see what the assignment was, you’re not giving away the farm, you don’t have to give any lectures or anything, you just, kind of, here’s what the brief was, and then some reflections where people can talk about what went right and what went wrong.

And, the hope is that people can share things and kind of help everyone out. Especially, there’s so many more schools and programs out now. There’s lots of people who are part-time educators or people who are interested in teaching, but don’t know where to go. There’s people like me, who have been teaching for a while that may be a little burned out or need new new ways to inject a different approach to a project. People who are teaching in new areas of a discipline, like, they been along time VCD person, but they might have to teach a UX/UI class. And so, the hope is that the teaching resource can help people. It just launched so people are loading projects now.

Jp:

That’s such a great idea. At PLU, I am the loan designer.

Annabelle:

Yeah.

Jp:

And, it does get lonely trying to think of, “Wow. Man, what is it that I should do next, or should I just keep that same project, or whatever it is. And, I’m looking forward to doing something like this, contributing, as well as as learning from that.

Annabelle:

And, I think there’s more and more programs where you might be the only instructor. So, who do you talk to? How do you evaluate whether a project is good or not? You know, is it just whether the student does a nice job? Whether the student gets a good portfolio piece out of it? I think it’s bigger than that. I think it’s… There’s a thread of a curriculum and I think, just evaluating not just the pragmatic parts of, “I needed another week to bring in X,Y, or Z,” or, “I should have had a content expert come in,” etc. I think it’s just a way to get a better sense of what’s out there. Because, more and more, there’s people teaching by themselves, or people who are starting programs, and, you know, it can’t just be sort of five schools that you look to.

There’s people doing great work everywhere. That was one of the things I learned about being on the DEC is that there’s terrific teachers everywhere who all struggle with different things. So, hopefully a community can be built out of it.

Jp:

You actually come from two schools that I have admired greatly. Cranbrook, because of their educational model of doing things, but also North Carolina State, because of Meredith Davis, who what a Rockstar. Amazing. To sit in the shadow of Meredith Davis is my dream come true.

Jp & Annabelle:

(laugh)

Annabelle:

Yeah, she was… Well, she’s just recently retired from NC State. But, I think we’ve joked there’s five students, or five current educators could not pack in the amount of knowledge that Meredith has. She’s really a formidable figure in design, and I feel very lucky that she was my teacher. I’m not sure as an undergrad I appreciated that. I’m not sure that as an undergraduate you’re really aware of, kind of, know who your teachers are. They’re sort of your parents. You don’t appreciate them until you’re gone. So, Meredith is… She’s wonderful. She’s made a huge contribution. Cranbrook is just a different place, and it’s funny because, you know, at Cranbook there are no classes. There are no grades. You just work all the time. And, when I came to UW, and Chad you might appreciate this having been a grad student, like, I don’t really know how to make a grad program because my experience was Cranbook. Which is just, kind of, do stuff. You just make stuff. And so, the grad program at UW is not set up to be that way. But, I felt like. “Well, why aren’t the students just making all day?” And, “Why aren’t they just in Studio 24/7?” It’s just not that kind of environment. It’s a research institution. You know, there’s classes, there’s grades, there’s requirements. And, it just a different vibe. So, when I sometimes rail about, you know, “Why aren’t our grad students making things?” I think they’re reading. I think they’re researching. But, their output is just different. It was a different time at Cranbrook.

Chad:

But, I remember in our first critique, when I heard you say that, I felt like it lit a fire underneath me that was just like, “Oh, I need to be doing this part more, too.” (laughs) Which was great. And, I felt like I think it was after that first critique we did, like we went into that project in Chris Obzuko’s class and we totally like, kind of, blew up the brief you gave us. It was the project Catherine [Lim] and I took to China.

Annabelle:

Ohhh.

Chad:

And, we just totally, like, reinterpreted in a whole way.

Annabelle:

Yeah. I mean, I think you learn by doing. And, so much now is… Can be automated. Like, you don’t have to make icons. You don’t have to choose your photos, ’cause they’re right there on Flickr, or Getty, or wherever. And so, you never pick up your camera and take pictures. So, you never really understand what makes a good picture unless you’re doing it yourself. And so… And, I think that’s what undergrad should be is learning by doing, and making lots and lots of stuff. I think grad can still be like that, but everyone has their own reasons for why they’re in grad school. Not everybody maybe wants to be a doer or a maker.

Chad:

I guess, one last question, I mean, you touched upon this earlier. At the beginning of the conversation we were talking a lot about being a designer first and educator second. And, in that, I think one thing when I was in school that I always admired about the faculty, was that they had to balance that. And, I felt like that was very helpful in them being a teacher was that they were they were doing it in one way or another. But, I never knew how they did it.

Annabelle:

I don’t think we do either. Balance is not a good term. It’s sort of… It’s sort of interesting. I think from the students’ perspective, you know, we teach twice a week, so they see us three hours, two days a week, and maybe in office hours. So, the rest of the time, we’re probably just home with our feet up playing classical music and reading a book. And, that’s just not how it works. I mean, I have a great job. I love my job. But, it’s a lot of hours. It’s like drinking through a firehose, especially, you know, September to June. I don’t teach in the summer time, but it’s a tough balance. You teach one day, and then you mentally have to, kind of, check out other teaching to go right into whatever project you’re working on, to then go right back into teaching. So, it has felt like, at times, two full time jobs. If you’re doing professional work for clients, they don’t care that you’re teaching, they want their stuff when they want it. And then, you know, you have responsibilities to deliver a good lecture. A cohesive discussion in class to students. And so, it’s it’s hard. It’s a hard balance. I don’t doubt there’s lots of jobs out there that struggle with the balance, but I think there’s certainly a perception that academics have a pretty cushy, Sort of… Yeah.

I remember when I was younger, I told my dad, “I want to be an academic or professor like you so I don’t have to work in the summertime.” And, he kind of patted me on the head was like, “That’s not really how it works.” And, I see that. I see that. There’s a lot of service involved. There’s a lot of research and time demands in the university, the intangible things. So, you know, I’m tenured so I’m in a bit more of a secure position than I would have been. And, you know, how lucky are we that you can have a job where you can essentially have a job for life after you’ve gone through promotion? But, it’s hard work. It’s a lot of work. It’s satisfying most of the time. But it’s demanding. And, the balance is off. The balance is off for most everybody in this country, I think the work that we do…

Jp:

Oh, most definitely.

Annabelle:

It’s not the kind of job where at 5 o’clock I can check out and go home. I’m often up late prepping lectures and things. And, I’m fortunate now that I’ve been teaching long enough that I can reuse parts of them. But, I’m just not the kind of person that wants to keep reusing the same projects and reusing the same lectures. I’m, sort of, always trying to figure out, I think I could always be better, but try to figure out how to make them current and relevant. So, I don’t want to use examples from 15 years ago for a student who doesn’t know or care who David Carson is, or Sagmeister, who is, you know, that people are looking at now. So, I try to make things relevant, but it takes a long time.

Chad:

So, one thing we usually tie our episodes up with is a quick list of various recommendations of things that you’re into right now.

Annabelle:

Oh, boy.

Chad:

So, the first thing I’m curious about is what’s something that you’ve read recently that you feel will be impactful or hasn’t gotten enough airplay?

Annabelle:

Well, the AIGA, and this is with Meredith Davis’ work, they released a series of papers, white papers, it’s called Design Futures. There’s a website for it. But, a number of tenants that the designer of 2025 and beyond should be looking to fit into, or to be. And, they’re not your traditional sort of design; better at form, better at ideation, beauty, utility, kind of thing. And so, I would encourage designers to go read them. I think they’ve been useful. It’s hard to wrap your head around some of the topics, but I think it’s worth exploring them. Designer of 2025.

Jp:

A recommendation of what to do best to unwind after a long day of educating.

Annabelle:

Run. Get out and exercise. I don’t think our students exercise enough. I think you gotta get out and move.

Chad:

I second that.

Annabelle:

I know you do. He’s a pretty fast runner.

Jp:

Well, as someone who is slowly working his way up to running. What would be a good piece of music to run to?

Annabelle:

I think you need something that will match your beat. Renegades, X Ambassadors is, kind of, the first on my run list. And, it just has a beat at least gets me going. I can’t do slow music. Yeah, there was a couple of Eminem songs that I remember trying to pound up a huge hill on one of my first half marathons, and I’m like, “Okay, this hits the beat.” Like, “This I can do.” No podcasts.

Jp:

No podcast. Check and check. Except for This is Design School. Subscribe on…

Annabelle:

Oh, that might be a good one, yeah.

Jp:

Well Annabelle, thank you so much for your time. I have learned so much and have been an admirer for awhile. It’s an honor to have been here with you.

Annabelle:

Well, it’s been a pleasure to be with you both. Thank you for having me.

Chad:

Thanks Annabelle.

---

And, that concludes Year 04 of This is Design School.