On this episode, we talk with Annu Yadav, Head of Design at Aurora Solar in San Francisco, California. Annu is a multidisciplinary practitioner across fine art, design, fashion technology, and business. Yadav discusses how her approach to design brings diverse and unique voices to a team to shape new ideas, how gaining knowledge helps shed fear, and gives us a reminder of how design is inherently an act of service.

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Chad:

Annu Yadav, thank you so much for joining us on This Design School today. I’m so glad we were able to connect with you while we’re here.

Annu:

Thank you. Thank you for having me here. I’m very excited.

Chad:

So, I wanted to start our conversation off with how you found design and, kind of, what your early journey through that was to get you, sort of, where you are today. And we can, of course, tell that story and do some little side conversations along the way, but…

Annu:

Awesome. Well, I kind of stumbled upon design. I was doing sculpture in school and my sculpture teacher said, “Hey, you don’t have to become a doctor.” And, I was destined to become a doctor. And, he sent me this small newspaper cutting of this fashion design school that was really big at the time in India. I just applied to it, got in, and after I got in, then I learned what design is.

And, I was delightfully surprised to have found this medium where the way that we learn was fundamentally different than the way that, just, traditional academics was treated. And, I loved this kind of visual learning, this kind of abstract thinking that I never had access to.

And, yeah. Since then, I’ve done different kinds of design work. I studied to be a fashion designer, worked as an art director in ad agencies, and then started my own company. I used to make costumes. And then, stumbled into design thinking and innovation work.

I went to CCA here in San Francisco. That’s what got me to this country. And, since then, you know, my idea of design has just forever and forever expanded. And now, I lead design at a fashion tech company. We make all kinds of softwares that are needed during the garment manufacturing in the fashion industry. So yeah, it’s been quite a journey.

Chad:

When you first took that leap, and ventured into to fashion design, what was it like figuring out that fashion design wasn’t what you wanted to do, but yet design was still appealing to you?

Annu:

I really appreciate that question. And, maybe I’ll be criticized for saying that. But, I think it’s different reality when you’re studying fashion design as a student, and when you work in the industry, garment manufacturing industry. I think there’s a severe lack of creative integrity, simply because the shelf life of artifacts is so short. And, everything operates on “Hey, this is selling, so we should also make this; a version of this.”

I remember a design director giving us, like, 10 different copies of these outfits he saw in Paris, and you’re like, “I want 10 two versions of this top, 10 different version of this dress.” That was one. And, my foray in that role as fashion designer was in a country like India, where at that point, this was in 2007, there was a lot of production and India’s economy was booming for… in the export industry. The factories felt as if… it was just so horribly regulated that… There was so much pollution. The water was being thrown into the rivers and the lakes.

Chad:

Untreated.

Annu:

And yeah. And, there were so many regulations that the factories were supposed to have, but obviously they were not implemented. There are so many places that brands get their clothes manufactured that they don’t even know. Because the factory that they’re giving the clothes to manufacturer, give it to some other fabricators where none of these regulations are followed. And honestly, there’s no way for those companies to track, because sometimes factories take an order, and then obviously they’re overwhelmed, and then they outsource that to other people.

There are multiple reasons why I left that industry and specifically. But, I liked the ethos of design that I grasped from it, which is this appreciation for beauty, appreciation for expression. I think those are the gifts that I carried forward in my career as an innovation strategist, as a design thinker, as a UX designer. And sometimes, you know, in the Bay Area, we can be so biased towards being utilitarian in our, in our designs, and functional. But, I think we need to bring back that idea of beauty and expression that other forms of design actually still practice.

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Chad:

So, what was that process of discovery of finding something else?

Annu:

Honestly, like, I can only speak for myself. But, you can only discover that you have an affinity toward something by simply trying that. And, I think I was a little bit reckless. I just threw myself in different situations, different jobs. I took up a job as an art director, and in the ad agency, I was at DDB, and everyone was like, “What is this girl doing? She’s a fashion designer. She’s never had any experience in ads. What is she doing?” And, I think, honestly, just by being there, and by being the different one, you bring fresh ideas to the table. And, I was part of this group in that agency. It was a stand up comedian, fashion designer, and a coder. And…

Chad:

Wait you were a stand up comedian?

Annu:

No, no. I was part of a team.

Chad:

Oh, okay. I was like…

Jp:

I was going to say, we are gonna talk about something else!

Annu:

I’m definitely not funny.

Annu:

No, you were on a team with a… that makes sense.

Annu:

Yes, that means… So, we were only supposed to think of, like, ideas for awards—ads that are made for awards. And, I think it I was fortunate to get that entry point in ads, but it really expanded my thinking. And, I think my understanding of how to speak to the market, how to speak to audience was informed by this old school, traditional ad agency world. But, you know, we were really good at crafting the message. We were really good at creating different mediums of messaging. And, I was part of that. And, that really expanded the mediums through which I could express myself as a designer. And, it removed any sort of self inhibitions, when it came to, “Oh, yeah, I can try this, and do that thing.” Once you try this, try something and do even mildly good at it. Your fear of trying just slowly goes away. And that’s how I, kind of, just did multiple things. And, as I started having this very, all over the place career, I realized that if you have the fundamentals of design well in place, no matter what medium you go to, you can actually—minus the craft, you have to learn the craft and the skills—but, you can actually do a good job of it. And, I do believe that as designers, we have that common platform. And, that gives us amazing mobility, to traverse from one domain to the other, and to the other. And, that ultimately helped me in consulting as well, because you’re not afraid of trying different professions. And, when you’re consulting, you’re trying, you’re catering to different domains, different clients. I think designers have that beautiful gift, actually. To be able to navigate in different kinds of environments and workplaces and mediums.

Chad:

I mean, one thing I’ve always appreciated is you were talking about this interdisciplinary team you worked on. And, in a sense, that interdisciplinary mindset helped you make that jump over, right? And explore new things. And, sometimes I wonder whether that appreciation for interdisciplinary mindsets or teams, versus over hyperspecialization in a particular area. Do you feel like that is something that is shifting in either direction of being more appreciative of that interdisciplinary mindset or more in the route of specialization?

Annu:

I think that we are moving towards a culture, a creative culture where we are more and more honoring people who bring diverse point of views. At least in design that is happening. You know, we’re not only welcoming people with diverse backgrounds, cultural backgrounds, ethnic backgrounds, but we’re also welcoming people who have different backgrounds in terms of industries, in terms of craft, in terms of expertise, and sometimes even subject matter experts. You know, I love that shift. I love that. And, even when I moved from India to here, there was such a big cultural difference that I loved. You know, in India, people appreciate mastery, depth of a craft, depth of an industry. And, that was, even though I moved a lot in India. But, I think, in the states, in California, in San Francisco, I felt like there was more of an open mindset to welcome people of a different perspective. As long as you do good work, people don’t care about what all did you do? I think that’s a gift I think we should remember that America gives to people is that ability to show your merit by doing the work that you can do well. I’ve been in teams, you know, where my design team was also working with the Director of Health of a healthcare startup, and we were designing features together. And, I do not think that if design team was just in a corner designing those features without that input from that doctor, we could have come up with those compelling solutions. And, I think designers do not, and should not work in isolation. We should not just speak to customers, which is the whole premise of user research, but we should equally consider people who are experts in the domain.

Chad:

Yeah, I think that’s one thing I felt like I began to learn more as I developed in my career. I felt like when I was in school, being younger, there was this emphasis of like, “Oh, like, the benefit I bring of a designer is, like, this beginner’s mindset and walking into a situation and being able to absorb the information and look at it in a different way than people who are in it day-to-day.” But, I think that, at least at the time, was at the devalue of the subject matter experts that are in it in the day-to-day, that understand all the— I always have a hard time saying this word—that understand all the intricacy.. in tricky..

Annu:

Intricacies.

Chad:

Yes. (laughs) Of that space that take years to really understand. And then, I felt like shifting that perspective of like, actually, it’s the pairing of, you know, bringing that mindset that you create, and the process of going about doing that, and pairing it with experts, is even more powerful than either one separately.

Annu:

I fully agree.

Chad:

After that, at a period of time. I know you went back to school. What was the decision making process to go back to school, and what did you feel like that prepared you to do?

Annu:

Yeah, I went back to school because I felt like I wanted to understand the language of design and apply it for business. I was an entrepreneur, and I realized that creatives are not equipped to run their businesses well. And, I wanted to learn business. And, I also wanted to learn business with the lens of design thinking. And, I found this very unique program at CCA. And I’d read Nathan Shedroff’s books on experience design, and that just created a beautiful pool for me. And, I’m like, “Yeah, I wanted to learn business. And, I want to understand this ethos of design thinking and how you can apply that for different businesses.” And, what I learned in the program was not just… not only I came out of it with significantly better business understanding of concepts, but also just examining everything that we observe around it. Every observation we make, whether its political, whether it’s cultural, with a critical lens. And, I came up with so many frameworks that I could use and apply to any problem, whether it’s a nonprofit problem, whether it’s a for profit business problem, whether it came to designing services, whether it came to designing a physical space experience. And, I think that again, I go back to, whenever you learn something, you’re, you’re eliminating, you’re shedding one more layer of fear, of, “Hey, I can’t do this because I don’t know how to do this.” When you’re given certain frameworks to work in, you can input anything. Good solutions can come out of it. And, what fundamentally I got from that program was coming back with this philosophy that when you do good and when you generate enough customer value, you will invariably make money. Every subject that we learned was taught with the lens of ethics, sustainability, and empathy, user empathy. And, I know those words sound cliché, as we were talking earlier, but to me they’re highly valuable and give me the tools to feel empowered—more self aware. And, it really helped me in my consulting career, and also when I was setting up an innovation lab with no agency and hardly any resources—how to negotiate, how to request, how to form your case. Yeah, I believe that designers can learn a ton if they just, you know, learn the language of business, in some ways. And, it has helped me and my design practice tremendously.

Chad:

I really appreciated that you mentioned this lens of criticality in the work that you do, but also pairing that with a better understanding of business. And, the critical aspect, I feel like, you know… We begin having these conversations around ethics, and morals, and things like that. And, in practice in design, I feel like sometimes there’s this tension between the the morals and the ethics, and then the business lens of it. And, has there been any situations where you feel like you’ve had to navigate the tension between those?

Annu:

Oh, yeah, most certainly.

Chad:

And, how have you navigated between those?

Annu:

Some arguments, and some nudges from my side were success and some were not. But, I think the strategies that were employed, I’ve been—most of them have been when I was working with startups or the companies, and the user privacy scenario. I think there were sometimes where I was just completely, completely baffled with some of the decisions that were being made from a business point of view. Some of the KPIs that we that the business team were establishing and…

Chad:

KPIs being Key Performance Indicators.

Annu:

Yes. Some of those. And, I just fundamentally had a moral value problem with them. And, the way that I tried to express it is by, perhaps, telling, personalizing those stories, not only from point of view of persona, but making it sound like, “Hey, you have your friend of yours who was the girl, like, would she like to publicize at all times her location?” This was a particular instance where I was working with these five startup dudes. And, they literally had—and they were good people—think they had no perspective of how does a woman navigate in the world. And, their app was about broadcasting your location so that you can tell your friends, “Hey, I’m hanging out here. Do you want to hang out with me?” And, you know, their fundamental problems, and problems that we’re solving, you know, some of the… I think there are more compelling problems we can solve. But, at the same time, you know, there are some basic user privacy problems that I don’t think that they were considering.

So, personalizing those stories, making them more of a personal experience so that they can emphasize with, “Hey, it’s not just a business thing. It’s a key problem that most of the people have.” And, other times I think they are been moral and the ethical issue is regarding not having the user’s perspective in the room. Other times, there were some key problems with sustainability issues, and how we roll out some features.

And, my current role is actually in a company that we’re trying to optimize the garment manufacturing industry through very smart tools by reducing waste and reducing consumption. And, some of these conversations very often come up, where, you know, we realize that we can fundamentally change the way that garments are being sampled and made. And, some of the conversations that come up over there are also… I can’t talk about them. But, some of those conversations that come there also can be very challenging from a value perspective. And, I try my best to bring the user point of view. Sometimes, even just having recorded videos of research that we’ve done and playing it in front of executives, that really helps. Internalizing the personas, proliferating them across different teams, cross functional assimilation of those ideas and values. Reinforcing them over and over again in every presentation, every conversation also really helps.

Yeah, I think amplifying your voice. Not feeling like you have a smaller voice because you’re a designer, really helps. I think people employ us for that perspective. And, in my opinion, as jarring as it may feel, it’s okay. It’s okay to express your point of view because it’s unique, and because it’s different. And, you never know, it might make a difference sometime.

This is something I really deeply, deeply care about. And, I think especially in the Bay Area, Silicon Valley, we cannot just say that, “Hey, it’s someone else making those decisions.” Those decisions are affecting the world right now. And, we as designers also have a fundamental responsibility in shifting those conversations, bringing ethics into design more prominently, and just saying it out loud that these decisions that are being made right now are just outrightly horrible. One of the tactics that I’ve thought of, and it’s been talked about in the design world, is thinking of always thinking of a bad person prototype. You know, when you’re thinking of… We always imagine the ideal situation when we’re designing a product. This is the ideal customer. And, this is the way that it will be used. And, it’s usually the most positive, most sometimes altruistic thing that we imagine. But, we never keep into account what if someone with bad intention uses this product? How is this person going to use this product? And, just like we imagine all the use cases for a good user, we should imagine all the use cases that a bad actor can use this product for, and try to actively circumvent those when you’re designing a product. I think we should actively do that, especially in more digital social media space, for sure.

Jp:

I think about the card deck Artefact.

Chad:

Yeah, Sheryl.

Jp:

Yeah. Last season Sheryl Cababa shared with us the

Chad:

Tarot Cards of Tech.

Jp:

There we go. The Tarot Cards of Tech. Have you ever heard of it?

Annu:

No.

Jp:

There are questions, these like really big questions, that you pull from the deck that are one that as you’re starting to think of, let’s say at this application, or you’re starting to think of going live with an app, you can reference these cards. And, they have these large scenarios. What happens when your user group goes to 5 million? You know? So, starting off early, you’re thinking just a handful, a couple hundred. When you are exponentially now having to think how do you sustain and maintain security, you maintain privacy, you maintain even having the the database in its functionality state with so much stress upon it. It’s interesting that you bring that up, because it’s one of those things that perhaps we, as design educators are failing to consider or failing to instill in upon our students, that it’s not just about producing something that is wonderful, functional, and needed for the market. But, what happens when it is distorted into a form that is not intended for use? What happens when the values that you have are in conflict with the values of the user, or with the values of the client that you’re working with? What do you do in that sort of situation,, whether you are an independent contractor or you’re an employee, and that company has decided we can make more money by doing this, and you don’t want to do that. I don’t think we give those kinds of scenarios.

Annu:

No. And, how do even put up that fight? And, how to manage your feelings when you lose that battle? I think those are important considerations that we could… We emotionally should prepare our students. Because, I think, inherently designers just take on a lot of emotional stress. We’re constantly managing different stakeholders. We’re working with the dev. We’re working with the business people. We’re constantly trying to build a bridge through our artifacts or through through our work, even if it’s not an artifact. I think, I feel like there’s a huge opportunity where we can prepare designers to manage that kind of an emotional burden.

Chad:

Well, one thing that I thought would be nice to circle back to, that we were talking about before, was, kind of, managing identities. How do you teach young designers to manage their self identity with the identity we take on at work? How do we navigate around decisions, right? As we were talking before, there’s some decisions we would make at work that we may not make in our personal lives. And there’s ethical consequences to that, and how do we navigate that?

Annu:

No, I think it’s, it’s perfectly valid. I think there are a bunch of things that enriches a human, and design is just one of those things, you know? Sometimes our profession defines our identity, it’s a major part of our identity, and sometimes it’s not. And, I think that we should all be aware of all the different parts that come together that make us that wholesome person. I think most designers are doing design because they have to be passionate about it in some ways, because today as well, you know, we are still fighting to have design and get a seat on the table. But, I think there are different parts of a human there. I can speak for myself. There’s an artist part of me. There’s an artistic identity that I actively nourish. There’s a part of me that is very interested in social impact work for women. I try to do that outside of my day job. And, I think we got to, we got to, we got to pet you know, all of these different parts of ourselves, and love all these different parts of ourselves so, they start to interconnect and bring ideas, bring practices, from one aspect of your personality to the other. And, it’s sometimes, for me, at least, you know, my artistic practice took away this deep need to constantly have over creative work in design. Where I could just think of designing something for others. Because as a designer, you’re inherently serving. You have to serve others. As an artist. It’s a place where I can be selfish. I can serve myself. And, I think that really lifts off the tension that I felt for a long time when I did not have a dedicated artistic practice, where I felt completed. Like I want to have this creative expression, but the project that I’m in currently doesn’t allow for that. And, it can be creatively frustrating. So, I think it’s nice to amalgamate different parts of you, because they invariably affect and enrich your practice, whether it’s a part of ourselves, that is ethnic, cultural, inheritance, or whether it’s artistic.

Jp:

And, that kind of brings us into where we are right now. We’re recording in your artist studio in Sausalito.

Annu:

Yes.

Jp:

Can you maybe describe it a little bit for us of what we are surrounding ourselves?

Annu:

You are, you’re in my creative space. It’s a very sacred space for me and I’m really happy that you’re here. I paint here. I make wearable art. I do it over the weekends. I have a day job. And, I do it on the in the nighttime, in the weekends. And, it’s really satisfying to do that. I’m a painter, and make textile art that is wearable.

Jp:

And, we want to say thank you, of course, for letting us into this space. It’s such amazing work to be involved, and to see the the process of how creativity can be sectioned off to a whole other atmosphere by the lens of design, as well. So, you look around and it’s not the augmented reality, it’s not this, but it is inspired by and informed with what you are doing nine-to-five, or you know, whatever the hours of that.

Annu:

Yeah.

Jp:

I come from a liberal arts background where my department is in with Fine Arts, and we are very much an applied art. But, the students are required to take classes like painting, and drawing, and printmaking, and sculpture, ceramics. And, a lot of times students are often questioning, “Well, why aren’t we doing more design? Why aren’t we doing these things?” And, I remind them that you are doing design by taking up painting. You are doing design by going into the printmaking studio, it’s just a matter of reframing what you are doing. And, you’re also allowing yourself a different medium to experience.

Annu:

Yeah.

Jp:

And, hopefully that will enhance the overall process of whatever it is that you take on. And, I imagined that meaning something similar for you.

Annu:

Oh my god. In so many ways. I think there are two things that one could benefit from art as designers. And, there’s a book also, you know, Design as Art, you know by Munari. And, it’s a book I really, really love. There, you know, he perceives design is almost an art. And, I think there’s some resonance to that. But, when you’re practicing art, there’s so many things you can learn in terms of discipline, in terms of the emergent aspect of what comes out when you do art. When you start, you’re dealing with an empty canvas. And, as you start layering things more and more something emerges. A narrative emerges. I think those are the things that we can learn from design, from art.

And, I have. I learned all these concepts of value, color, design. Design, in terms of how to layout elements and the form. And then, I kind of just stayed away from those principles initially. But, then now, just applying those in compositions for my paintings. I think the principles remain the same. But the way… What we’re saying is different.

As I said earlier, as an artist, you’re serving yourself in so many ways and serving society, because you’re honoring your own narrative. But, as a designer, you’re serving your customers, you’re serving your people, you’re serving the company that you’re working for. You’re serving a point of view, but I think that it’s very—at least for me—it’s been an interrelated pathway. And, when I was doing costume design work, there was a script. I had to work with a director. I had to make costumes for a protagonist. But, at the same time, there was so many artistic elements to it. Like, I think there’s different mediums offered different allowances for creative expression. In the UI/UX area, perhaps a less little bit. But, now we’re looking at so many digital art artists coming out. But yeah, there are different mediums for different kinds of creative expression. I love that overlap.

Jp:

I love the way that you are phrasing that as service. Something that is in honoring of information, in honoring of subject matter, in honoring of people that I find very valuable. That is something that we sometimes often forget. Or, that designers aren’t seen, as well, because design can be mystified by, “It’s done on a computer, and therefore it is kind of magical that you click some buttons, you push a mouse around, and it happens.”

Annu:

Yeah.

Jp:

As opposed to a real deep meaning and understanding of both your experience, the user’s experience, the information that you are reading and gathering, as well as inspiration. And, it’s all serviceable to a common goal. It’s all working towards something.

Annu:

Yeah. And, I think, as a designer, you have to assimilate different points of views. You have to be that connector. And, another big contrast is as an artist, you can be… You’re absorbing, but you’re creating alone. But, I think I would imagine design is essentially… You cannot just sit in a corner and design something. You have to talk to people. You have to bring their point of view in some ways, or honor it.

Jp:

I often tell students that they are the glue between the client and the information.

Annu:

And, I think at the end of the day all humans want to be heard. But, I think that the best way to succeed in putting your point of view to every stakeholder is to just genuinely listen. And, there’s so many different ways you can do that. I tend to, like, do graphic recording. I literally draw when we talk, so that there’s beauty in people seeing what they just said, the words that just dissipated into the air being translated into written things on the wall. And, I think that’s a very basic human need. It’s been successful every time I did it, generally.

Jp:

That’s pretty awesome.

Annu:

Yeah.

Jp:

I was thinking one other thing that I feel like we haven’t really touched on, the idea of working in social impact. And, I think this other thing that I’m also particular really interested in is the additional considerations that need to go into doing that kind of work.

Annu:

When I was in India, I worked with organizations. It’s my dream to create a world where underprivileged women have financial freedom. And, I think I’ve plugged myself in these sort of ways, never internally, but from the outset, I’ve always been designer educator. I’ve worked in India in nonprofit organizations that helped women who had certain skills to make money. And, I’ve worked here with IDEO.org in Eastern Africa, and I was essentially practicing and teaching design thinking to the local nonprofits. And, there were a couple of projects, you know, along with big foundations, like Packard Foundation, PSI, and we went to different countries like Rwanda, Ethiopia, Tanzania, and we would actually have five day emersions. You know? The small, like, sprint format work, you know, that’s informed by real research. And, I think what I learned from that is that when you go into international situations you’re just a visitor. You know? I can—I cannot say that for India. But, when I enter Africa and I speak to girls there, and this was all in sexual reproductive health space, in preventing teenage pregnancies, creating more academic opportunities for girls, etc, talking about contraception, very sensitive, culturally very sensitive topics.

And, I think the way to do that is never to have a prescriptive narrative. And, that’s why the work that I think we did was so meaningful because we were working with the local nonprofits, local people on the ground. And, working with them, and practicing design thinking methodologies in a short condensed like four or five day format. I like that method because you’re empowering them. You’re just sharing your experiences, and they can implement that in their own way, in their own culturally appropriate way. And, we’re not interjecting the ebbs and flows of their data.

I remember, like, we were in Ethiopia. And, there was this person who just didn’t believe in whatever we’re doing, like what is this rapid prototyping and, and we were rapid prototyping, like, program ideas, you know. And, our team came up with reframing girls education. And, we learned on the field that when we say, a smart family, it resonates better than say, hey, you should go educate your girls. And, when we were in the field. And, we actually, overnight, you know, we hired a writer, we hired an UHD player that we recruited from a restaurant, and we created a song. And, we went to a local nonprofit there that hosts all these girls and family and we started singing that song and and the response that we got from them was just so profound that this person was working with local nonprofit there. just felt like he just literally said, Oh, now I know what is rapid prototyping. I think when you I think that was also very beautiful to say that sometimes nonconformists can be persuaded to believe if you actually show them. And, that’s the beauty of design. And, I think social impact space has such an immense opportunity. It’s an up, it’s a place where designers should enter more I feel like because then the number of lives you’re touching is really is really impactful. Yeah, my dream to be there. And, I’m working towards it.

Jp:

Well, Annu that was so inspiring. Thank you so much for that.

Annu:

Thank you for having me.

Annu:

Before we before we conclude, we usually try to get some recommendations from our guests. So, my my first request for recommendation is… We are here in the San Francisco Bay Area. What would what’s a recommendation place to go that perhaps culturally interesting, or has a cool design aesthetic, or just a must see for the area.

Annu:

For the science minded people, Exploratorium is a good place to explore. And, there’s also… I love SF MoMA here, and DeYoung Museum. Both are my favorites.

Chad:

I’m always curious about what people are reading these days. So, I was curious if you had an article or a book, or an audio book, or something that you’d listened to or read lately that you thought made an impact on you and your perspective that would be beneficial to share to others.

Annu:

I’m reading this book by the called No Ashes in the Fire. And, it’s a book that is giving me so much of an insight in the struggle of African American people in this country. And, it’s written by this amazing African American man who’s narrating his own experiences growing up in Camden. He’s an author. He’s a beautiful poet. And it’s… Yeah. I love that book. And, also reading this book called Three Women. It’s a nonfiction book but feels like fiction on the lives of these amazing three different women. Women that she actually the author actually, personally spoke to

Jp:

I’m interested in a recommendation for—because I’m a faculty member at an institution. What would be a class that you would recommend design students should be taking right now? class? Yeah, I mean, something outside of Art and Design.

Annu:

I don’t know. But learning basic Economics. It’s so out there. It’s like not, but it really, really helped me because I didn’t. As I said, I didn’t have any business background, science background, my high school. Also, my personal goal is to learn about financial management, like things that are so outside of our interest areas, but Like important functional skills. It just gives us a language to speak to our stakeholders better.

Annu:

Yeah. I think economics is a good one. Yeah, thank you.

Chad:

The last recommendation I was curious about is music. I don’t know if you listen to a lot of music, but I’m curious what you’re listening to now.

Annu:

I listen to so many different… I like sort of this electronic world music. I’m listening right now to me. He’s one of the people I listen to this Persian artists pair on G. Neil’s forum, Jon Hopkins, Bob Moses. So many. Yeah, there’s a ton of like… I’m a Sufi music fan. I love Mr. de la Han, and a bunch of other Persian artists that I’m now exposed to, thanks to my partner.

Annu:

Do you listen to music or podcasts or audiobooks when you’re designing?

Annu:

I listened to tons of music. I unfortunately can’t listen to it. Guess when I’m working. But I love on being with Krista Tippett. Oh, yes, it’s like my morning ritual. I also like listening to New York Daily. It’s very well done.

Chad:

Annu, thank you so much for spending your time with us. It’s been a pleasure talking to you.

Annu:

Thank you for having me here on your podcast. I feel really, really, really honored.

Jp:

We are extremely honored. Thank you.

Annu:

(laughs)