On this episode, we talked to Jeff Barlow, who is a Creative Director at Boeing. He shares his insight about how doing design well requires putting in the time, the importance of the craft of typography, and how a continuous and complete design education requires being present in the real world.

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Chad:

Jeff Barlow, thanks for joining us on This is Design School today. Really excited to have you here.

Jeff:

Hey, I’m glad to be here. Thank you.

Chad:

So, to get the conversation started off we wanted to ask you, what’s your journey in design like? How did you discover it? And, what’s that path been like?

Jeff:

I didn’t know what graphic design was when I was younger. I loved to draw pictures. I loved to draw band logos in high school. I didn’t realize I was touching graphic design. But, I wanted to be a photographer. I loved taking pictures. I had a pretty decent camera. I took photography classes in high school won a big award that was kind of exciting. So, as soon as I was done with high school wound up going to a community college down in the Bay Area, California and I showed up to sign up for classes and all the photography classes were full. And, I just figured it’s like an extension of high school, right? I needed a math class, an English class, a history class, and then some sort of elective. And, I figured photography all full. Hmm. Graphic art. I wonder what this is? And, I signed up and I showed up to the class. And, we started by doing our own personal logo, we did a poster for like some sort of dance recital, and we did a package for—I can’t even remember what. And, I was like, “This is the best thing ever. I am a graphic designer now!” And, I’ve never looked back.

Chad:

What was your logo? What was your personal logo? Do you still use it, today?

Jeff:

No!

All:

(laugh)

Jeff:

Oh, heavens no. It was kind of a really bad drawing of a hand where the thumb made a J. It was awful. I would never show that to anyone. I certainly don’t have it anymore. Went there for a little bit and then applied to, I started actually at Brigham Young University, and went through their foundations program. And then, you have to… It was a four-year program so you have to apply for the junior and senior level, for the BFA level. And, applied for that and actually didn’t make it. They said, “Ah, your skills are a little weak. You’re a little falling back in couple of these areas. Take these classes and apply again.” So I did. I took those classes and I applied again. And, also didn’t make it. And so, I transferred up to the University of Utah and applied and they said, “Great, but your background is a little different than what we look for. So, we’ll accept you as a sophomore.” Here’s the thing that I think is valuable and what was good for me. Is that when I knew I wanted to be a graphic designer, I knew I wanted to be a graphic designer. And, the fact that they pushed me back to software three times, I didn’t care. I still needed to do it. I kept pushing through. And, you know, I couldn’t have asked, actually, for anything better to happen to me because during my BFA level of design education, I was a little bit more mature. I started going to school because I wanted to learn things instead of going to school because I felt I needed to check that box of a degree. And, graphic design really came alive for me—the conceptual side of it, the visual side of it. And, actually my last two years of school—h two, three years of school—I absolutely loved. So, yeah.

Chad:

It paid off in the end.

Jeff:

It definitely paid off.

Jp:

Who would have thought?

Jeff:

I know, right? Reminds me of a guy I was going to school with, we had this big test coming up and we all work together, we studied in this big group, and at the end of it he took the test and he came out and he’s like, “Man, that test was easy and all I did was study.” We all looked at him and were like, “Huh, maybe there’s something there.” (laughs)

Jp:

Yeah. If only we could put two and two together.

Jeff:

I know. Studied and then did well on the test. That’s so weird.

Chad:

It’s interesting. ‘Cause, I mean, in all the classes I’ve had where I’ve taught design, or been a TA, students are just like, “Gah, this is a lot of work.” And, you’re like, “Well, yeah. You got to put the work in to get it out.”

Jeff:

Exactly. Well, I teach a class at the local design school here in typography. Actually, I teach three different classes in typography. And, I always tell my students, “If you’re going to succeed in this class, in my Typography 2 class… If you’re going to succeed in this class, you’re going to spend between four and eight hours a week outside of class just working on it, and pushing it. If you do that, you’ll do well in this class.” And, the thing I’ve discovered is that that’s not accurate at all. My students either spend way less than four or way more than eight, right?

Jp:

Well, from that story you were just telling, you know that sometimes there’s that drive, that no matter what I will continue to persist.

Jeff:

My wife always says, you know, “Someone who is really talented, their talent isn’t the ability to do the thing, it’s the ability to not give up on the thing and just keep doing it over and over and over again.”

Jp:

Yesss.

Chad:

So, your last few years of school were fantastic.

Jeff:

They really were.

Chad:

What was next out of that?

Jeff:

Well, I got a job at the largest creative agency in Provo, Utah. There were 12 of us.

Jp:

(chuckles)

Jeff:

And, uh, we were doing some fun work. I really loved the people I worked with. And, I had a project for a pretty big worldwide recognized client and it was going to be on college campuses all across America. As the corporate world will do, the marketing director over the project, our client contact, got re-org’d. So, we had a new contact, and the new person said, “You can’t get good work in Utah.” And, just pulled the job. Never took a phone call from us, never looked at a portfolio, and never did anything. And, I was like, “I wonder if I’m going to fight that my whole career if I stay here,” So, I opened up the old Print Regional Design Annual, I looked through, and I really, really loved the work that was coming out of Seattle. So, I packed up a portfolio, I sent out some letters, and I came up here. I had a three day tour through all the agencies in Seattle. I had a, kind of, a top 10 list that I wanted to go to, and then when I went to those I would ask, “Who else should I reach out to?” And, I wound up having meetings with probably 15 or 20 different design studios of all different sizes.

Chad:

Wow.

Jeff:

And, I ended up getting a job at one of the bigger studios in town and moved the family up here. I had a wife and two kids at the time. My daughter was 6 months old. My son was 2 years old. And, up we came. Didn’t really have any connections up here, just really liked the design work. And, I thought this would be a good stepping stone to get me to San Francisco. Because, San Francisco is, you know, everybody talks about how great the design in San Francisco is. And, when I’d been here for like two months, I was taking the bus headed from the Northgate area down towards downtown Seattle and came up over the ship Canal Bridge, and it was a sunny day with the sun shining on the Seattle skyline and there was a float plane landing on Lake Union, and I was like, “I’m home!”

All:

(laugh)

Jeff:

And yeah, I love it here. It’s been a great place ever since.

Chad:

So, it sounds like when you got to the city. I mean, you didn’t know anyone, but yet you managed to visit 15 places!

Jeff:

Well, I got really lucky in that one of my professors at University of Utah, knew someone. Hornall Anderson had a tiny satellite office in Salt Lake City. And so, I used that connection. I went and talked to the lady who was running that and said, “Hey, I want to head up to Seattle. Would you be willing to introduce me to some of your people at Hornall?” “Yeah, absolutely.” So, she introduced me to a couple of senior design project manager folks there. And, then I said, “Well, if I’m going around Seattle. What are the design studios I should go to?” And, she gave me a list of 10. So, I sent mailers to all of those 10 with a resume and brief sample in my work, etc. I made some follow up phone calls. So, when I came up here, I had out of those 10, I probably had six appointments and then kept working on the others. And then, the others said, “Well, have you seen the Puget Sound Business Journal Book of Lists’ Top Graphic Design Studios in Seattle?” And so, there was a list of 25 there. So, daytime I went and did my visits, nighttime I went through that list and added some more people to talk to. And, just anybody who’d talked to me, I’d take the time and do it.

Jp:

Do you think that still possible to do today?

Jeff:

Absolutely. I see a lot of students who work really, really hard on building themselves a website, and that’s great. And, I think they feel like everything relies on the website to get the job. And, the thing I would say is, you should have enough on your website that you have some credibility, but meet them face-to-face, look ’em in the eye show ’em that you can, you know, that you’re not a weirdo and that you can communicate with people face-to-face and that you can make human connections. Because of graphic design is human connection and you gotta be good at that face-to-face if you’re also going to be doing it on paper, on screen, or whatever. So yeah, I think it’s possible. You notice, I went through a connection, right? I met somebody who knew somebody. When you know somebody… You know, it didn’t hurt that Craig Mackleby was my head professor who had a really, really strong name in the graphic design world. And, I say, “Hey, my professor Craig Mackleby recommended that I call you.” And, they’re like, “Oh, well if Mac says he should call me, Mac knows what he’s talking about. And so, it’s relationship. The relationship gets you in the door. Then, the work get you the job. Right, so. AIGA was a great thing for that. I’ve been heavily involved in that here in Seattle. And, you wouldn’t believe some of the things I asked some really heavy hitters to do, and they’re like, “Yeah, I can do that.” I actually had Steven Heller, the voice of the history of graphic design, call me back! And, I was like, “I’ve got Steven Heller on the phone! I don’t know what…?!” Scary. And, he was so nice. That’s fantastic.

Jp:

That’s the way we felt. I think one of our first really big interviews was Terry Marks.

Jeff:

Oh, Terry Marks. I love that guy!

Jp:

And, I know Terry outside of the podcast, but still sending that email was like, “Will he say yes?” And then, he was in the room with us, and I’m like, “I’ve only been in the room for like five minutes with him ever my life. And, here I am trying to have this interview.” And I’m like, “Terry…”

Jeff:

Terry’s amazing. Yeah. So, how am I doing? Am I better than Terry?

Jp:

Oh yeah, definitely.

Jeff:

Okay. Phew.

Jp:

We’ve laughed more than with you than we did with Terry.

Jeff:

I don’t believe that. You don’t get Terry in the room and not laugh.

Jp:

(laughs) Yeah.

Jeff:

But, I worked at… the studio was called Team Design at the time. And now, they’re called Methodology. Well, no. Now they’re called Digital Kitchen. But, they were Methodology for a lot of years. But, that’s where I got started. And, Janet, who was one of the principles there, you know, I owe her big part of my design career ’cause she took a chance on little podunk nobody who, I guess, had an okay portfolio. And, I loved working there. I learned so many things there. And, after about four years there, I got really excited and I was just young enough, and dumb enough. And, then another young designer that I worked there with, Mr. Tan Le. He and I shared a lot of common goals, a lot of common ideas, and I’m like, you know what? I think we could make a go of it and do this ourselves. And, we started our own studio called Grip. Did that for a few years. But, had I not gotten that start in the big city and had a chance to work with big clients and learn how, you know, a real design studio works, I never would have been able to do that.

Chad:

When you start something on your own. I imagine you probably realized you learned some things that maybe you didn’t think you were learning.

Jeff:

I think the most valuable skill I had, that I learned from the big agency, and that I also had learned in the smaller agency I was working for in Utah, was that if you build a good relationship with the client they will send you more work. And so, I learned that skill and used that skill, and was able to… If the client came to me with a single project, we’d talked to him. We’d do it. We’d do our best job as we could. And then, we talked to him about, “Alright, well where does this fit in the rest of your plan and how can we help?” So, a good client with a good project would grow, right? And so, that was the thing that gave me the bravery, the courage, or the stupidity, whatever you call it, to think, “I don’t need to work for somebody else. We can, I can do this on my own.” And, Tan and I both felt the same way. And, we did. And he was, we were both pretty good designers. And, he was really good at helping drive the design and really push our vision for design. And, I was pretty good at building relationships with the clients. And, that was a pretty good combination. We were able to have the business and the creative and the combination to grow pretty fast. We ran into a bigger, interactive agency who… They had the interactive thing down really, really well. They were the leading edge of what was going on in Seattle. And, they had a lot of clients who need print and brand. So, we would use each other and then eventually wound up just merging. So, I went from big agency, to small studio, back to big agency. It’s been an interesting journey. I’m on a roller coaster, I think. Big, small, big, small. Then, I went to the small place and then after I had done that for a few years, I decided I was going to branch out on my own again and just did my own sole proprietary kind of thing—called that Jelvetica. Do you remember when you used to have to be invited to be in Gmail?

Jp:

Oh, yeah. The early years. Yeah.

Jeff:

I had a friend who was in Gmail, and I was like, “Yeah, invite me. I want to be in the cool Gmail club. I want to have Gmail. So, he invited me. And, jeffbarlow@gmail.com was already taken, and jeffbarlow1 and jeffbarlow2. And, I was like, “This is stupid.” And, I had just seen the Helvetica movie. And, I’m very, very passionate about Typography. And, I was like, “I should just do something that’s typography related. Like, “Let’s see, Jeff, Helvetica. Jeff. Helvetica. Jelvetica!

Jp:

(laughs)

Jeff:

And so, I got the Gmail jelvetica@gmail.com. And, I thought, “I wonder if the URL is available?” And so, I went to one of the services and gelvatica.com, available. So, I bought it having no idea what I was going to use it for.

Jp:

Sure.

Jeff:

And then, I just worked for a couple more years at the place I was at. And, then I was like, I’m going to branch out on my own. And, I already have this…

Jp:

You have all the branding components.

Jeff:

…this URL. So, that’s what I called my studio. So, that’s what I did. And well, you want to hear the next step of my career? So, I had been doing that for a while. The big epiphany I had when I was running my own studio, and actually a little bit before that, was when you’re a young designer and you come out of design school, you have this, this idea that you’ve been trained, and you’re really good at what you do. And, if you’ve gone to a good design school, that’s absolutely true. You have been trained and you are really good at what you do. And you can create things. In fact, I love having a young designer on my team all the time because they’re pushing into areas that I would never push. Because I’m a Dinosaur, right? But, you come out of design school and you feel pretty good about yourself. There’s this confidence that you carry. And, when I was at that stage I had this idea that I was the designer, I was an expert at design, and the client was the enemy.

Jp & Chad:

(laugh)

Jeff:

Right? They would come to me because they didn’t know how to design, so they needed it, and they would say, “I want you to do design.” And then, “I would use my expertise, my knowledge, my wisdom, and my brilliance (I’m using air quotes on this podcast), and I would say, “Make the greatest design possible!” And, then I would present it to the client. And then, in my head, here’s how it worked. Present to the client. Then the client’s job is to chip away at it, hack at it, and try as hard as they can to ruin it. And, the hope is you can keep enough of the soul of the design alive by the time it prints that you’re still willing to put your name on it. That’s the way I saw the design process. And then, I keep plugging AIGA, but I can definitely credit an AIGA speaker who was talking about, you know, “Yes, we’re good at design and we’re brilliant, talented, and that kind of stuff. But, the real magic is in the client’s mind. Those clients are experts at what they do. They’re steeped in the brand. They’ve been living it every day. They know things that you don’t know that if you can get those things, to throw those things on the table as part of your design equation, your design is going to be a lot better and your clients are going to be a lot happier. And so, I started, sort of, taking that perspective. I was like, “Alright, let’s sit down with the client and ask him some questions, and let’s really dig into their head and figure out what are they really all about? What do they really know that I don’t know? And, how can I use that?” And, the thing I discovered is that I had come up with some really good ideas as a graphic designer. And, now that I was looking at the client from that perspective, I saw that they could throw a lot of things out on the table and I would look through those things, proverbially, and see the magic thing—not in what I thought of, but in what they had given me. And, I sort of switched from being a creator as a designer, to being more of a treasure hunter as a designer. Sit with them. Ask them the questions. Because, they’re going to hand me the answer. I probably shouldn’t tell them that, or… Because if they realize they all have the answer, what are they going to need to come to us for?

Jp:

No, but you become the interpreter.

Jeff:

Yeah, exactly. Well, the thing is, they had the answer in front of them for years and when they threw it on the table, we pull it out. This is just kind of a side note, I used to get this all the time going to big meetings with big clients with lots of people, and you have to get all dressed up, and we’d go in there with the note pads and everything like that. And, the client would start talking about what they’re doing, and what’s going on and how important their business is. And, I was just sitting there listening to them and I was looking at everyone else in the room, and everyone else in there was just writing all of these things down. And, I was sitting in this thinking, “I don’t understand why they’re writing things down. What are they writing down? Should I be writing something down? ‘Cause everyone’s writing things down.” I would just sit there and sort of be patient with it. And, then, “Oh, there we go.” And, I’d start writing something down. Then, I’d look up and no one else was writing anything down.

All:

(laugh)

Jeff:

And, I was like, “Boy, am I writing the right thing down? But, I’d look for those things those things that stand out. I would take them back and try and turn them into design work. And, when I was able to come back and say, “Well, you guys mentioned this, and this, and this. And, when you said this, it sparked this. And so, here is the result. And, they’re like, “Yeeaahh.” And so, that’s sort of a long way of me telling the story of starting to understand that those clients really had the treasures and it was just our job to find them as designers and interpret them. And, what that did was make me want to learn more, and more, and more about my clients. The more I could learn about ’em the better I could be. And, that was about the time when Jelvetica was starting to go along. And then, a friend of mine reached out to me from Starbucks and said, “You’re…” I was the AIGA president in Seattle, at the time. They reached out to me and said, “We’re looking for someone to lead an in-house in-store promotions team at Starbucks. Who do you know, through AIGA, that might be good for this?” ‘Cause I was running my own studio, and I was pretty happy. I gave him a list of names and didn’t think much about it. And then, after a couple weeks they reached back, and said, like, “This is great. But, they want more and more names. Who else can you give me?” And, I said, “Well, give me a job description.” And, he gave it to me and I was like… I looked at it and I went and talked to my wife and I said, “You know, the more and more I’m realizing I want to learn more about my clients, if I was in-house I could really learn about my client because I would be my client.” Right? And, I called back my friend who had reached out to me and I said, “What if I threw my hat in the ring on this? And, he’s like, “Yeah, go for it. Fantastic.” And, I wound up getting the job and I led an in-store promotions team for like six years, there.

Chad:

Was it hard to walk away from something you’d built?

Jeff:

It was. It was really hard. It was really nice. The timing couldn’t have been more perfect. ‘Cause I had just come off a huge load of work that had wound down and sort of been finished, completed, whatever. I had done a lot of things… When I was doing my own thing, I was kind of an accordion—expand and contract. And, I had a lot of freelancers that I brought in for some big projects and then I would let them go when the project was over. And, I was exactly at a point where it was me, an office manager who was working with me because she loved being in the design part, but wanted to move on to other things anyway. So, it was like the perfect time. So, I couldn’t ask for it to be better. So, it was tough. I had to walk away from my studio in Ballard, which was fine ’cause my lease was up about that time. I had to walk away from the gelato store next door. That was even tougher because that place is amazing. Anyway, so I joined Starbucks and never look back. It was really fantastic. And, after being there about six years, a thing came across my desk that said Boeing is looking for a creative director, and I’ve always really, really admired Boeing. They’re the type of company that has changed the world so many times, right?

Jp:

Oh, yeah.

Jeff:

And, I don’t know if you’ve ever read the book Built to Last. It’s a fantastic book about what makes a great business run well. And, Boeing is all through the pages of Built to Last. And, I had read that book several times and I really liked it. And, when an opportunity to work at a company that was in Built to Last, that had all these attributes of changing the world so many times, and being such a successful company… I mean, they changed the world with the 707. They changed the world with th 727. They changed the world with the 747. They’ve recently changed the world with the Dreamliner. They’re building the rocket that is going to go to Mars, for crying out loud. That’s pretty cool.

Chad:

Yeah.

Jeff:

And so, when that came along I was like… My mom is one of my great advisors, and she said, “If you if you have an opportunity to interview for a job, whether you want it or not, take it. It’s really good experience. It’s really good to get to know those people. You never know what’s going to go on.” So, I put my portfolio together, and I thought, “There’s no way I’m going to land this job at Boeing, but it will be good for me to try.”

Chad:

You know it’s interesting hearing you talk about that. I feel like that’s exactly the way I felt in, like, almost every job interview I’ve had.

Jeff:

(laughs)

Chad:

It’s like, you have a conversation with either like a good friend or your parents and they’re like, “Well, just do it. It’ll be good experience.” Like, here you are. You’re, you know, a very successful designer in your career, and you’re feeling the same way!

Jeff:

Yeah, yeah. I didn’t think I had a shot at it. I mean, Boeing is doing some great stuff. The nearest I could think of was there was some sort of computer glitch and I was the only applicant.

Jp:

(laughs)

Jeff:

And, that’s been a great experience. The creative studio at Boeing is really in an upswing right now. They’ve had that talent in-house for a lot of years, but just… The business climate of the world has changed in the last 5, 10 years, in that, companies are realizing the value of brand, of having creativity at the leadership level. and the importance of creativity in making your business go forward. Because you can’t do business as usual, the way it was done 20 years ago. And, Boeing is a company that’s really realized that. And, because of that, the creativity portion of Boeing has really grown and strengthened. And, I feel like I’ve been able to jump on, right on the wave, when really, really great stuff is happening.

Jp:

Do you feel that you still have that same sort of passion that you did in college?

Jeff:

Absolutely. Absolutely. But, I think I’ve done a lot of teaching—typography classes and stuff like that. And, I think that has really… Because I’ve seen a lot of students really blossom. When you see the light come on in somebody, it’s pretty awesome, right? When they’re like, “Ahh, I get it.” Right?

Jp:

Yeah. That a-ha moment.

Jeff:

Yeah.

Chad:

Typography.

Jeff:

Yes, Typography.

Chad:

So, how did you learn typography?

Jeff:

Well, typography is something everybody is always learning. But, the first place where the light really came on for me with typography was in, when I was at Brigham Young University, the teacher said, “We’re going to have a guest lecturer here and come give our two-hour class on typography next week. So, be sure to be here for that.” And, I was like, “What?! How could anyone possibly talk for two hours about typography and not be super boring?” This guy showed up and he started talking his type talk and I’ll never forget, he laid out this book that he had done, and he’s like, “I did the typography on this book.” And, there was an opening spread and it just had two words on it. It was… I think it was like American Illustration, or American Illustrators, or? I can’t remember what the words are, but I remember that the word American was in it, and that the second word had the same number of letters as American. He said, “Now, the obvious thing to do would be to put these two in here, stack ’em up and just line up all the letters. The A goes with the first letter, the M goes with the second letter.” But he goes, “Look, these letters are all different widths. So, I did the letter spacing on this one so that it was right, and then the letter spacing on the one below it so that it was right. And, I made them line up on the end. And so, the type works beautifully.” And I was like, “That is so cool.” ‘Cause it would be obvious. But, if you’ve got an M on the top word in like an I on the second word, it’s really going to be out of balance ’cause that one letter is so narrow. And, when he showed us that, I was like, “Wow! That’s really cool.” Then something else he said was, you know, “You should really get good at typography if you’re going to be a graphic designer because every project you work on your whole career is going to have typography. It may or not may not have illustration, it may or may not have photography, it may or may not have color, but it’s always going to have typography.” So, get good at typography. And, that’s, sort of, from that point I just really self studied about type. Anything I could do to learn about it.

Now, to the point where I’ve been teaching typography at at SVC here in Seattle. I just had one of my students… One of the most proud moments, one of my students said, “You know, with all this stuff you’re saying about typography, I’m thinking if you get this typography part down, you’re kind of about 90% there. I was like, “Yes! Exactly.”

Jp:

Welcome to design.

Jeff:

Yeah. It’s so important because design is all about the idea and the typography is so powerful at delivering the idea. It’s so critical to delivering the idea.

Chad:

What… I mean, even when you teach or when you’re back in school, what was the most impactful book on typography that was helping you when you were self learning, or now teaching?

Jeff:

Umm, teaching, I really love Ellen Lupton’s Thinking With Type book because it takes some abstract principles and really makes them easy to understand, and easy to teach. I actually use even a couple of the exercises in her book with my typography one class. In fact, the student who did the 23-hour project, that was one of the projects out of that book. He was like, “I just couldn’t stop.”

Chad:

That’s good.

Jeff:

Of course, I use the Bringhurst book, of course, Elements of Typographic Style. No one would dare call themselves a typographer and not have that on their shelf. The principle I’ve been driving home a lot as something that I kind of pieced together from all the different stuff that I’ve read and it’s this idea of whole brain typography. Like, right brain, left brain, analytical versus emotional, utilitarian versus expressive. And, looking at your typography from that perspective is like, “Alright, if I’m making a poster, I’m definitely going to need something that’s expressive in the type. But, if it’s a poster, for example, a band gig or a symposium on architecture, I’ve also got some utilitarian stuff because people need to know the date, the time, they need to be able to find where it is, all that kind of stuff. And so, how do I draw this balance between left brain type, right brain type? Utility type versus expressive type? And, I’ve had a lot of fun with that recently.

Jp:

Interesting.

Chad:

So, earlier you were talking about as you gotten to be a creative director and you’re working with younger designers now, and how you’ve really enjoyed that ’cause they bring something new to the table. What’s it been like working with designers younger in their career and seeing where they’re at in school? I feel like that kind of gives you an idea of where kind of design education is. And, obviously they’re coming from all over the place.

Jeff:

Sure.

Chad:

Generally, where do you feel are the strengths and weaknesses of where you see that today?Or, like, what your impression of that is?

Jeff:

Of design education?

Chad:

Design education, yeah. And, like, where young designers are at coming out of that.

Jeff:

It’s interesting, ’cause I teach at SVC. Also, I don’t know if you’re aware that I’m also on the Advisory Board for the design program at Western. And so, I get together with them fairly… Well, I don’t know, once and a while basis, where they’re like, “Alright, here’s what we’re doing with our curriculum, is this helping our students be ready for their careers?” And, there are a lot of the design schools around here, who do a really good job. Who are pushing students into territories that I’d never even thought of, you know, when I was a young designer. And, I think it’s great. ‘Cause, it’s great to see that cutting edge and how they’re able to use technology, how they are able to use the access of information to push design to another level. To get to the skill, to get to the craft, faster. The downside of that, that I’ve really seen is, you know, a lot of times we’ll do a… When a project first starts and you have to get the concept figured out, maybe you go do a mood board, or something like that. I want something that feels aggressive and edgy, or I want something that feels serene and peaceful. Go away make a mood Board of that, right? And, you send 10 designers out and you get 10 mood boards that all look the same. Because they all went to the same websites, went to the same pages, and search terms, and they all found the same things. Crack open a book for crying out loud, right? You know what? Walk through an open air market. Find your inspiration somewhere besides that stupid Internet. The phone’s a great thing, but sometimes you can put it down. Find some original thinking.

Sorry, you got me soapboxing here. But… So, I think the place where it falls down is the information is too easy to access. And they are finding things… So, everybody is finding the same thing.

Jp:

But, do you think that that’s also part of the way that we are teaching?

Jeff:

Well, if I were king for a day and could grant it, I wouldn’t worry so much about the projects that wind up in the portfolio. I would work really, really hard on the way the designers think. What are you thinking about? What is your thought process? What is your idea generation approach? The thinking you have to do to do an annual report is so valuable because you have to figure out what is really important about this company, and what is it about this year for this company, and how can I deliver that? Right? Now, yes, you can deliver that information in an annual report. You could also put that in a website. You could put it in an approach to a trade show display. So, if you can do the thinking that builds a good annual report, you can do the thinking that markets a business well.

Jp:

So Jeff, we are doing something new with this season. We’re doing a recommendations list of fun things. Quick. If you want or you can expound on them if you’d like. So are you game?

Jeff:

Sure. I hope I have what you’re looking for.

Jp:

So, our first one is, what is the favorite type of sketch book that you have?

Jeff:

I actually work with a lot of different sketchbooks. I keep one in my pocket that is a Stillman & Birn. I got one of these at a sketch workshop I went to and I liked it so much I bought multiples. I use a Moleskine for a lot of my stuff. It is just the right size. It’s not pocket size, but I can carry it places.

Jp:

Do you prefer a pocket size versus a larger…

Jeff:

Different purposes? Yeah, I love a Moleskine sketchbook. I wish they had a decent sketchbook that would really hold a Ticonderoga 2 pencil well. They just they don’t have one. The Moleskines sometimes have a little pencil holder. It’s just big enough that you think your pencil is secure, and then it’s gone. Well, if you see me, 99.9 percent of the time if you see me, I’ve got a yellow pencil behind my ear. In fact, you guys can see, you can’t see this in the podcast. But, see my ears. This ones different. You can actually see where there’s a notch for where my pencil goes. Can you see it? This one goes out just a little bit further.

Jeff:

Yeah. Yup.

Jeff:

I have literally affected my physical appearance because I have a pencil up behind my ear so often.

Jp:

Well, that leads me to my next recommendation. How do you… What do you do to unwind or to stay creative?

Jeff:

I love everything about graphic design and I love it as a job, and whatever. But, the thing that I’ve been doing lately that’s been just really a lot of fun. It started with an AIGA workshop, where the guy who does the Seattle daily sketch, Gabriel Campanario, I think I’m saying his last name correctly. But, he does a sketch in the PI everyday, and you see him all the time. He gave this urban sketching workshop and we went out and sketched a bunch of things. And, I was like, “This is really kind of fun.” And so, I started doing that. Just on a side note basis. If I was going someplace cool I’ll bring a sketchbook and see if I get one or two sketches. I did that for a couple of years, once or twice a year. And then, I had a friend who was a musician and said, “Come to our gig!” And, I was like, “Okay. Well, I’ll bring a sketch book along.” And so, I brought it and I thought, “Oh, I’m going to draw the band members while they’re doing it.” And, I started doing it and it was terrible. They just kept bouncing around and jumping and they’re doing all this crazy stuff. And, I was like, “I can’t get a drawing this.” Finally, the lead guitarist also had a mandolin that was on a little stand on the stage. I drew that ’cause it held still. (laughs) “Oh, that looks really nice.” But they bounced around. And then, I wasn’t done drawing and wasn’t ready to go home, and they were coming towards the end of their set. And I thought, “Well, if they’re going to jump around and be crazy and loose like that, what if I just waited ’til they start their next song, going to take my pencil, I’m going to take my sketchbook, and as soon as they start I’m going to start drawing. And, I’m going to draw the whole band in one song and see what happens. So, they start playing and I start my sketch. And, play, play, play, sketch, sketch, sketch, play, play, play, sketch, sketch, sketch. Song ends. I pick up the pencil. I looked down, and I was like, “Huh. You know, that’s not bad. And so, for the last probably two years, I have been going to band gigs at least once a week, and there’s usually three bands in the gig. I do small venues so I can talk to the bands after, and I draw the band in one song. And, I usually get 20, 15 to 25 drawings in a night. And it’s been really, really fun.

Jp:

That’s that’s pretty awesome.

Jeff:

Keeps the energy going.

Chad:

So, piggy backing from the sketchbook, to creativity and drawing, to drawing music, the last recommendation we’re going to ask for you is, what’s the best album to design to?

Jeff:

(laughs)Umm, the best album to design to. Well, it depends on what kind of design doesn’t it?

Chad:

I suppose it does.

Jeff:

I really like… I gotta go with The Beatles. And, I’ll put The Beatles on to play in the background partially because I’ve listened to The Beatles so many times that I don’t get over analytical with it and it won’t take away my concentration. But, it keeps things going. Pink Floyd is also pretty good, too. Because it’s just nice and neutral. Anything too. energetic, you know, if I put in, like, if I put in something by this newer band called Naked Giants, their music is fantastic and it’s super energetic, and I catch myself going, “I’m not going to design, I’m just gonna listen.” So, I like stuff that that goes back… And, if I had to say favorite Beatle album, I’d have to go Abbey Road. I love Abbey Road. The backside of Abbey Road is one of the greatest accomplishments ever.

Jp:

Well Jeff, thank you so much for your time. We greatly appreciate it.

Jeff:

Well, thank you. I’m honored to be included on the list with Terry Marks. I mean, are you kidding me? Holy cow.

Jp:

He’s a good guy, and so are you. So, thank you very much.

Jeff:

Yeah.

Chad:

Yeah, thanks.