On this episode, Nicole Gleadle, Senior Designer at Qubit, talks about how moving to London, England and the lessons learned from starting over in another country. She speaks of her career progression in Seattle over the last seven years and how it prepared her for life in the UK.

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Nicole:

Hello and welcome.

(laugh)

Chad:

Ah, Nicole, it’s been a hot minute!

Nicole:

Hi you guys, thanks for having me.

Chad:

Yeah–

Jp:

It’s good to see you again.

Nicole:

Thank you guys, it’s been a year since I’ve been back to Seattle.

Jp:

Has it really?

Nicole:

Just about.

Jp:

Gosh, I am trying to think about the last time I saw you. We had dinner in Tacoma, was that really the last time I saw you?

Chad:

Or, was it at your going away party?

Jp:

Oh that’s right!

Nicole:

I was back in February.

Chad:

Don’t we actually have a recording from inside the car from outside your party?

Jp:

I think we do.

Nicole:

What did we do?

Jp:

Chad and I brought the recording equipment and we texted you to say, “come to the car.”

Chad:

We were going to a podcast then.

Jp:

We were going to do this impromptu… let’s just do this interview before she leaves on this big adventure.

Nicole:

I didn’t know that. I was kinda busy that night.

Chad:

You were mid-party.

Nicole:

Yeah, I was celebrating leaving Seattle for the first time.

Jp:

And, you had cupcakes!

Nicole:

And my birthday. Yeah I turned 29 last year. This year is the big 3-0.

Jp:

Wow.

Chad:

Welcome.

Nicole:

Thank you.

Chad:

Speaking of traveling abroad, I mean that is how we got really all got really close.

Nicole:

That’s true. We all traveled to Dubai together back in… 2011?

Chad:

No it was January of 2010, because it was my senior year.

Jp:

Yeah, that’s right I went in 2010 and 2013. Actually you all were the first group I took abroad…

Chad:

Oh yeah, it was obvious.

Jp:

Oh really?

All:

(laugh)

Nicole:

The number of times you had gelato as comfort food… We had a fun time traveling the world together. There is something about being on study abroad that you have your village with you. You have all the support system around you.

So being off on my own in this study abroad FOR REALS version–real world study abroad… it’s tough. But, I think some of the study abroad skills I learned from you guys and when I was in London in 2009 for an internship at the National Portrait Gallery… My first time in London.

Jp:

So wait a second, it was kinda pre-determined… really?

Nicole:

Or, maybe it was a place that I felt most myself.

Jp:

Yeah.

Nicole:

Most artsy, most free… just full of possibilities. So, I think I knew in 2009 that it was a place that I needed to get back to you for my own self.

Jp:

From 2009 to now, what was the trajectory to get there?

Nicole:

After graduation from PLU in 2011, I started in advertising in Seattle. Worked my way up–did Microsoft, Starbucks, all the main clients. REI was my last one. I had a great career here in Seattle. 6-7 years in marketing/advertising; going pretty well. On track to becoming an art director at POP, a local boutique design agency. I ended up saying, “You know, I can’t sell another frappuccino… I can’t just live my life here and that’s it.

My brother got engaged and he just got married. And I’m so excited for him, but also they’re moving their life to staying in Seattle. And that’s when I knew I had to get out.

Jp:

So you knew you had to get out. You have a one-way ticket. What was the plan?

Nicole:

The plan was to get my citizenship. My dad is British, my grandmother is British. His parents were British and they moved over for Boeing when he was just 6 years old. So I knew that I could get my citizenship. I did a lot of legal research to figure out, “Okay, I am British by my birthright, so I am going to claim that.” And, it was really to honor my grandmother who passed away last August. I bought the plane ticket in July. And, in November my bags were packed, my house was liquidated, and I was on a one-way plane to London.

It’s not like they hand you a passport when you’re coming through the gates. “I’m here to start my life in London! And citizen and immigration is looking at me like, “No you’re not!”

Chad:

Did they give you a time limit that you could stay in the country?

Nicole:

The time limit to be a visitor is 90 days. I had most of the paperwork I needed. I needed to be in the country to figure out some of the logistics like getting my dad’s birth certificate from the province he was born in up North.

Chad:

So, you are going to London and you had a few contacts there. Like, were they family there? I mean how did you already have contacts in London?

Nicole:

When I was at PLU, I got the chance to study abroad in London. One of my friends had done it the semester before and I knew it was possible. Kinda when you see someone had done it before you realize, “Oh, that’s not so far away from me, I can do that. My friend Deanna did it the year before me and she had a great experience. I met her over the summer, when she came back, and I said, “You know I was thinking about doing this in the spring… and she’s like, “DEFINITELY DO IT!” I never really left my hometown. I’m from Woodinville, just went down to Tacoma, which is just around Seattle. And so finally, I was like, “You know what, I am going to do it. I’ve seen her, she did it. I’ve been wanting to study abroad and travel on my own. So I went over; studied painting for a month in Paris. That was absolutely gorgeous. Then I headed over to London. And stepping into… My first step in London was kinda tenuous. I missed my flight there. But then, once I finally got in, I found a support system to help me. I had a school to take some classes. So I was taking Shakespeare and sketching and so many fun things and I also had an internship at the National Portrait Gallery. And, those people were the contacts that have become my friends for life. They actually signed my passport application. That was kinda one of those things where I had a great experience. It was a wonderful time. Six months in London, back to PLU to finish my design degree. Cut to seven years later and I am just jonesing to get out of Seattle. Something to change up my life. My brother is getting married. I need something new. So this one way ticket… And, I had my one way ticket and I had my people at the National Portrait Gallery to help me out.

Chad:

I am a little bit curious. Did you had the insight as a sophomore, in college, going to London, interning, studying… were you conscious at the time that the connections you were building that you wanted to keep and use later, or were you just genuinely getting to know these people and connecting with them on a human level?

Nicole:

Hmmm, that a good question. Of course. Of course they were my people. They were people that were there to support me in a time that was different and tough. And so, we became really good friends. And, I think at first, when you start something like that, you start as coworkers then you have a few beers at the pub and then you’re like, “OH. Now I’m going to help you out!” But, I think if I had the insight, I would have fostered those relationships and really tried to developed them when I came back or over the years. But, it really wasn’t my intention to get back. It was just to have a more diverse group of Facebook friends. Truly. When I study abroad, when I travel… I collect a few people from everywhere. It makes you think of the world in a more global perspective.

Jp:

So you’ve now gone to London. You have this directive that you need to become a citizen before you can leave the country…

Chad:

You travel north, you find your dad’s birth certificate…

Nicole:

I do. I went to my dad’s hometown. I had a little baggy of my grandmother’s ashes that I wanted to find her home–her mother’s grave and her childhood home she grew up in. I found somebody that is related to me. He’s actually the guy that sends up Christmas cards every year. It was nice to put a face to a name. He was 80 years old and he was driving me around this tiny little town–really a village. Hul is the town, if you want to look it up. The outlying villages are so small that just got tiny little roads. Everyone is there to ask you, “Do you need a bacon sandwich, do you need tea?” It’s a very different culture; quintessentially British.

Jp:

Yeah.

Nicole:

So, I received my dad’s birth certificate. That was one piece of the puzzle. Got all of papers in order–sent them off. Finally it was the day before Christmas and I got my passport, and it was such a magic moment–

Chad:

Your British passport…

Nicole:

My British passport. I couldn’t leave the country, I couldn’t get a job. I needed that passport to prove employment. And, I was so proud of myself. I don’t have any hurdles that can touch me now because I have dual citizenship. This is what I worked for–

Jp:

It was a Christmas miracle!

Nicole:

A Christmas miracle, truly!

Chad:

You kinda liquidated you life here, and you bought a plane ticket and you showed up in London with two bags–did you build up a little nest egg to help carry you through the first few months, or were you just winging it?

Nicole:

I liquidated all of my assets here and even re-homed my cat–

Chad:

Ann Shirley!?

Nicole:

Ann Shirley, the cat. She’s living a happy life in Ballard now–don’t worry.

Jp:

Nice.

Nicole:

But, I was able to save money working in Seattle for 6-7 years and I was able to just quit my job and all of a sudden I was said, “I gotta go explore this thing…” And they were super receptive and they said come back anytime. I was grateful. Everyone understood why I needed to do this and where I was going. I knew I had about six months worth of savings and then it was time to get a job. Which my dad reminded me of every day…

Chad:

Well, hopefully before then.

Nicole:

Exactly, yes. Getting a job was my primary goal.

Chad:

After citizenship… Nicole Yes, citizenship first, then a job. The things I didn’t realize that was going to really throw a wrench into my plan was housing. You think of home as a place that just is. You have a home, but when you don’t have a home… it’s the hardest thing. This nomadic lifestyle that some people are really meant for it and they love traveling and they don’t know where they are going to sleep the next night. But, I like to know. I like to know where my bed is, where my things are–just to have a space that is my own. So, I tried probably four different spaces. I was trying to balance flexibility and security–and it was a tough job because every time I found the most flexible contract the security would just fall apart. You’re like, “Oh god, I need to find a new place to live.” This happened to me four times and I am in a really great spot now. Found this great spot. Then, I was able to focus on a job. JP And so tell us a little bit about this job…

Nicole:

So, now I work in downtown London. I work in Covent Garden. It’s basically the center of the universe as far as I’m concerned. There’s art museums, they’re free, they’re all around, there’s people, uh, every single kind of culture you want, it’s all right there at your doorstep.

Chad:

And what does this job entail?

Nicole:

So, I jumped into the startup world. When I got into London, I worked with several recruiters; worked at an agency for a little bit. And then I said, “You know what, I need to do something that I can really sink my teeth into. So I decided to go in-house at a startup. The startup I am working for now is called Qubit. We do personalization software. So, not super sexy but we do work with a lot of fun e-commerce clients, lot of retail brands. It’s been really great to dig my teeth into a brand and work an agency see things from the side of a startup which is really, “Everybody! All hands on deck. Let’s get this done,” gave me a little more perspective on advertising and marketing from the inside. The cool thing about Qubit is that it was started by ex-Googlers, so we have an awesome kitchen. They have– JP Now you’re speaking my language.

Nicole:

They have fridges full of anything that you want to eat. You can make it for yourself. You can make an omelette, you can make smoked salmon on top of a bagel. Anything. It’s just wonderful. And so, I barely have to leave the office. It’s been a really fun time. I’m also learning about my British co-worker’s husband–he’s so fun. We laugh at each other’s accents and funny ways we say things. I just learned some fun British slang that I would have never known before. I absolutely love working in that spot because I live about 30 minutes on the tube North. And so, I’m able to come into this area has so much culture and history and just livliness. But, I get to live in an area that feels safe and has a park and has a cute little cinema and a grocery shop. I really feel blessed that I found this place because I think it is the community that I craved and wanted and it took me a few moments and a few places to find what is exactly right for me. And now starting again in London. I found a great flat–lots of light, and great roommate. So, I am able to have this sense of home and a sense of place away from home and I’m really loving it; excited for the next phase in that apartment. You find people around you that are there to support you. I think my National Portrait Gallery friends were there to support me. This family friend, he was there to support me. I’m finding a lot of people who are travelers. They get it. People from Australia, people from Poland, people from Italy–we come together and we strengthen each other. I didn’t really go to London to meet all of these cool expats, I thought it would just be British people.

Jp:

Hearing how you did it, I just can’t imagine doing it. I have the drive, I have the interest in living somewhere else, but then there is also that… I don’t know… To me, there is also a lot of fear. I think I have fear of lifting everything up and starting all over again…

Nicole:

Totally. Jp …grabbing the plate and then walking somewhere else and starting to spin them again.

Nicole:

Totally.

Jp:

How did you get past that?

Nicole:

There’s something beautiful in destruction and creation. I think I was in that moment in my life where I needed to destroy it and rebuild it elsewhere.

Jp:

Destroy what?

Nicole:

Destroy the safety nets and the fear that I had here. I think I needed to pick all that up, shake it up, and put a British accent on it; put a British spin on it.

All:

(laugh)

Nicole:

It worked. I mean I came face to face with the fear and I remember just being so alone and afraid and there is nobody to turn to except for your own self. It was terrifying. You’re not there with your family, you don’t have any of your friends. You don’t even know how to buy laundry soap. “What are these brands?!” It confusing and you push through and then you know that you can do it next time. And you look back and you say, “WOW, I did that? I can do anything. Look at what a badass I am!?” And at some point I was like, “You know what, bad things are going to continue to happen. Challenges are going pop up like Whack-A-Mole. I can’t change that, nobody’s ever going to make me immune to challenges. So I have to be ready to take them and I know that I’ve fixed these 50 challenges. What’s one more? Bring it on!

Chad:

A skill I’ve always admired, that you have, that I do not have, is that you can make friends… anywhere.

All:

(laugh)

Chad:

You’re so fearless in going to talking to people and meeting people and just making quick friends with them. Maybe it doesn’t always feel that way for you, but from the outside, it’s always seemed that way. I imagine that played a big part in going to a brand new place where you knew a few people? You’ve been there a year, almost, and you have a community…

Nicole:

I do have a community and I absolutely love the fact that I have fostered a brand new one; and it’s like my world has grown exponentially. If you think of concentric circles, my life is kinda POOF, expanded.

Jp:

Taking that circle idea, that concentric circle idea–what’s the next circle? What’s expanding out from there?

Nicole:

Even this time last year, I wouldn’t have been able to tell you that London was going to be a poof of a circle. (laugh) I… I don’t know. I think wherever the next phase of my life, whether it’s a revolution or evolution. I think this is very much a revolution for me; picking up and moving all the way to London. Seeing the next phase, it’s going to be an evolution; figuring out how can I have a garden in London, how can I have a community that we actually live near each other. So, I mean I think that is a thing that everybody is doing is they’re optimizing their life to be more and more workable for them.

Chad:

What’s one way that you’ve grown in the past year that picking up and moving that you don’t think you would have otherwise?

Nicole:

I think this empathy for people who are not from that place that they’re living. I think immigrants, especially in the US… Now that I am an immigrant, I understand how they are treated and how everybody deserves a break and some kindness, especially when your housing and your job and your legal situation is up in the air. Just having empathy for people who’ve done it. And kind of a kudos, it’s a brave thing for them to do and I get it and I can now connect with them on a deeper level.

Chad:

My opinion, empathy is the number one most important skill of a designer.

Jp:

Really, why?

Chad:

Because, you’re designing for someone else–

Nicole:

You have to be able to know who the user is and will that work for them?

Chad:

Yeah. And you have to understand them because without that then you’re just making art.

Nicole:

It’s why a lot of creative briefs are geared towards, what am I making? Who am I making them for? And, that strategy piece of it is key.

I think everybody can flex their empathy muscle a little bit more.

Jp:

I like that.

Okay Nicole, so I have an idea for a new topic. Would you be willing to experiment this with me?

Nicole:

I’ll be your guinea pig, okay.

Jp:

Okay! So I’m calling it the recommendation list. And I’m wondering if you have perhaps a couple of recommendations that you can give to Chad and I, or to our listeners out there, or whomever. Maybe to be a little bit more like Nicole. The first is, what would be a good book to recommend?

Nicole:

This is a good one. When I first left, my brother gave me a book and I think it’s perfect because I think the sentiment is just something great to receive from someone you love. So this is a book from Jen Sincero called, “You Are a Badass: How to Stop Doubting Your Greatness and Start Living an Awesome Life.”

Jp:

Oh, I like the title.

Nicole:

It’s a great book. She has a whole series of You Are a Badass. I think reading that while I was on this journey was exactly what I needed to hear.

Jp:

Yeah?

Nicole:

I’m in control of my own destiny, here we go… let’s make it great.

Jp:

Oh, I like that. Being a badass. Nice.

Music. What do you listen to on the commutes?

Nicole:

On the commute–you know I’m really into a podcast right now. It’s called, “My Favorite Murder,” and it’s two women that are basically bantering in their loft–kinda not unlike what we are doing now. And, they chat about their lives and then they talk about a murder. Each of them recounts stories of true crime. And, I love it. At the end they say, “Stay sexy and don’t get murdered.”

Good life advice.

Jp:

Yeah, yeah.

Nicole:

One of my coworkers is a DJ in London and he put together a playlist called, “Good Vibes,” and it’s the perfect most groovy happy soundtrack. I listen to it on Spotify all the time.

Jp:

Really, maybe we can get a link to it. Is that okay?

Nicole:

Of course.

Jp:

Ok

Nicole:

What are you guys listening to right now?

Jp:

I’m going to leave Chad here to answer that for the next six hours–

(laugh)

Chad:

How much time do we have?

Nicole:

What’s your favorite thing?

Jp:

I listen to podcasts… specifically, This is Design School, subscribe, rate and review on iTunes…

All:

(laugh)

Chad:

I would say one of my newest favorite finds, I mean I have all of my favorites of course, is probably Big Red Machine.

Nicole:

Is that music or a podcast? (laughs)

Chad:

Yeah. Good question. It’s music. It’s a collaboration between the lead singer from The National and the main guy from Bon Iver. But, actually it’s their first album. They created a new music space online to post unfinished, unpublished music for artists–

Nicole:

Unlike Soundcloud?

Chad:

Unlike Soundcloud. It’s totally non-commercial. And it’s just meant to be a creative place to share stuff that they normally wouldn’t publish–

Nicole:

What’s it called?

Chad:

The URL is like P-E-O-P-L-E. Yeah. That’s how they got the URL…

(laugh)

Nicole:

It sounds so underground.

Chad:

It is. I mean you go to the site and it all in monospace type. The first thing to see is, “Music for everyone.” But yeah. You can go and listen for free and just a bunch of stuff and so it’s all of these side collaborations of other artists that they go and have fun.

Jp:

WOW, cool.

Chad:

I could keep going–do you want to keep going?

Nicole:

Jp, what are you listening to–oh you said already.

Jp:

I… so for my birthday, I got a Sonos system. And with it, I’ve figured out that you can do a randomizer of music connected to my Google Music and so I just listen to whatever it plays… but I was just scrolling through to see what are the playlists that I’ve marked to listen to and there are three that pop up. The first one is called, High School/College music from the 90s and 2000sBreakfast with the Beatles, which is one that I’ve made. And the other one is called, Grandpa’s Nap Time.

All:

(laugh)

Nicole:

Did they pick that for you?

Jp:

…They did…

All:

(laugh)

Jp:

The worst part is that I highlighted it so I could find it easier.

All:

(laugh)

Nicole:

Increase font… 3 points.

All:

(laugh)

Nicole:

So grandpa, what’s on Grandpa’s Nap Time?

All:

(laugh)

Jp:

It’s a lot of–

Chad:

He doesn’t remember because…

Jp:

(snoring)

Chad:

He’s like, “I only know what the first song is…”

All:

(laugh)

Jp:

It’s a lot of… if I’m doing a lot of odds and ends around the house, this is what I will play. It’s a lot of old jazz… Louis Armstrong, Chet Baker, stuff like that. It’s nice to have background music.

I’m really liking Childish Gambino or Drake and stuff like that. I’m quite eclectic. I listen to a little bit of everything, but it’s not that I search it, it’s that it shows up and I listen to it.

Chad:

Alright we will do a few more rapid fire recommendations. Hot TV show?

Nicole:

Great British Bake-Off. Makes me hungry every time.

Chad:

Inspiring film?

Nicole:

You know, I just saw Garden State again, and it has the most gorgeous soundtrack.

Jp:

Hmmm, The Shins

Nicole:

The Shins

Chad:

Vegetable?

Nicole:

Oh, I recently rediscovered Asparagus. Definitely know if you hate Asparagus.

Chad:

Design tool?

Nicole:

Sketch. I’m all about Sketch right now.

Chad:

Prototyping tool…

Nicole:

Anything–

Jp:

Like sketching–the act of sketching? Or the program

Nicole:

The program

Jp:

Best advice you’ve ever gotten?

Nicole:

This is a loaded question, you’re gonna want me to give advice that you’ve given me?

Jp:

No, no. Not at all… not at all.

Nicole:

My advice to everyone is to just grow where you’re planted. I’ve definitely worked through that in London and I think I could live anywhere now.

Jp:

Awesome.

Chad:

And, each one our listeners now has a contact in London.

Nicole:

Hit me up, let’s get some tea… (laughs)

Chad:

…and crumpets.

Nicole:

Whatever you want, Chad.

Chad:

…or biscuits?

All:

(laugh)

Chad:

It was great seeing you. I mean… your smile. I know you can’t hear your smile, well you can kinda hear your smile…

Jp:

It sounds so British. (laughs)

Nicole:

Stop it!

Chad:

It’s been great talking and catching up with you and hearing about your brave journey.

Nicole:

I think I’m finally in the position to help people do the same thing that I’ve done. I would love to hear from students or people who are thinking about working internationally and just help them figure out all of the angles that you need to consider before moving internationally. But, I’m definitely a proponent… it’s the fast track to growing. My advice to everyone is to grow where you’re planted.

Jp:

Thanks Nicole!

Nicole:

Thanks, Jp. Thanks, Chad.