On this episode, we talked to Ruki Neuhold-Ravikumar, Director of Education at the Cooper Hewitt, Smithsonian Design Museum in New York City. Ruki discussed her journey from teaching design to joining the Cooper Hewitt, the museum’s amazing collection of artifacts, and how integrating design education can help society meet the demand of the immense challenges we face today. 

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Jp:

Ruki Neuhold Ravikumar welcome to to This is Design School. Thank you so much for taking some time out and talking with us.

Ruki:

Thank you.

Jp:

I feel like you and I have a bit of a kismet spirit of how you got to where you are by your experience which is kind of similar to mine. So, can you tell me a little bit about who you are?

Ruki:

So, I’m an educator. I’ve embraced that. I’m proud of it. It’s where my voice is clearest. I’m presently the director of education at the Cooper Hewitt Smithsonian Design Museum which has been a dream job. And, it’s lived up to that dream, too.

Jp:

Oh, I am so jealous! (laughs)

Ruki:

Before that, I was a professor of design for 14 years and my last job at my previous university was Associate Dean for College of Fine Arts and Design. And, it’s really interesting because I did advance. I started as an assistant professor and tenure process. I felt like I was advancing through that system. But, when I reached the level of Associate Dean and it came to applying for the Dean position it was really an interesting moment because my wife and I were sitting and we were talking about all the applications that I had done and out of the blue she said, “Do you want to be a Dean?”

No one had ever asked me that question before. And, I really thought for that moment, I thought, “No.” Because I love teaching. I love education. I love design. And, at that moment I felt so far away from all of that. And, we had that moment of… You know when you’re a kid and people ask you what do you want to be when you grow up? And, you think on a level that’s amazing ’cause you think of the person that impresses you, and what’s amazing to you, and you want to go to the moon because it seems like the furthest thing away and you want it at your fingertips…

Jp:

And the possibility.

Ruki:

…and the possibility. And, you have no clue at that age what that job does. But, it’s amazing to you and we don’t do that as adults.

Here I was sitting on our porch, having that moment of if you could do anything in the world what would it be? And, I had nothing to lose by just calling out things. And, I thought to the last place where I felt deeply inspired and that was when I had taken students on study tours and trips and found myself with the Cooper Hewitt.

That was the place where I just loved losing myself. I just felt so inspiring. So, I was telling her that I would love to work in a museum. So, of course, she went online, found a job, and told me the next day that there’s this job and you’d be perfect for it.

Of course I laughed it off. Because as adults we’re all skeptical. But, I applied and here I am. So, it’s possible.

Jp:

That’s so amazing. I feel very connected to that story because I have gone through that same experience. My partner, she has done the same sort of thing, like, “Oh, look! Here’s something!” And, I always look at it and I never take that next step. And, it’s always been myself that gets in the way of a potential dream come true. And so, I’m excited to have live vicariously now through you.

Ruki:

And, it’s such an inspiring place. So, I’m really happy to be there.

Jp:

So, what is it that you do at the Cooper Hewitt?

So, we do a lot of things. I think the Cooper Hewitt, as America’s design museum… The museum collects historical and contemporary objects. But, what make my job really interesting is we have a clear, but simple mission of inspire, empower, and educate people through design. And, that’s what my team gets to do. We get to connect people with the objects in the museum, the objects in the collection. And, more than just the objects the stories that go with them.

We do that to spread design literacy, to spread a better understanding of what design is, and really the power and value of design. And, so that’s what we do in a nutshell. But day-to-day, we connect with audiences of all ages and help them learn more about design and also to use the tools, the frameworks, the thinking processes of a designer and help them see how they can use it in their world.

Chad:

What’s the difficulty about framing that? When people walk into a museum and they see an object that they might have come across in their everyday life, Whether it be a blender, a bicycle, or watch for instance, and they see it on display in a museum? How do you bridge that gap between the objects we surround ourselves with every day, and then seeing it museum, then using that as a bridge to talking about design?

Ruki:

It’s a really great challenge to have. ‘Cause designs all around us, but when you ask a person, “What is design?” you just get a blank stare for a while. Even designers sometimes struggle to articulate, “What is design,” in a clear way. And, we tend to talk about design in its extremes. When it works really well and you have pride of ownership of something, you talk about beautiful design. And when something does not work at all, that’s the other moment that we recall it; when a chair is uncomfortable, when the airport gates don’t have enough power sockets, we immediately blame design. You know, “Who designed this thing?”

But, it’s all around us. And yet, we have a hard time talking about it. And, we see this at the museum. People walk in, and they are sometimes confused because they are surrounded by everyday objects. And, they don’t quite understand why it’s in a museum. And, what’s interesting though, is that we’ve taken that object out of the context that it was designed for, so that’s the first challenge. You have a bicycle that sitting on a display shelf and it has to tell its story. And so, where I think our role really comes together is when we’re able to interpret, tell those stories, and help people see that connection of why what they’re looking at is the best example of how a designer has solved a problem.

And, when they see that, and they can relate to it, yhey get really interested. They turn into a design enthusiast in seconds. And for us, that’s the great joy; is when they start to appreciate and become more observant if the world that they live in… and they start to make connections almost instantly. They start to talk about, “Oh, I had a bicycle that way.” Or, “I had a thing that did that.” Or, “Do you remember in the 80s when this happened?” You can see that they make those connections instantly. So, that’s the nice part about what we’re able to do.

Chad:

I think that this is something designers, and especially young designers, struggle with; is being able to tell the story of their own work.

Ruki:

Right.

Chad:

And so, “This is the solution I have and this is how it came about.” But, thinking about almost taking that outside of the designer and putting it in a museum, and using that as a use case to tell the story about design… And, I’m curious about how the museum goes about telling that story of that object.

Ruki:

So, it’s a multi-layered approach. There’s obviously the labeling, which is the first interaction where you read and hear about the story of the exhibition. But, what we get to do as an education team is to find a way for your story to connect with the object’s story, and that’s really where we excel.

Two years ago we changed how we approach education. ‘Cause like a lot of museums, we had made the assumption that the child is somehow the beginner and the adult is somehow very advanced in their knowledge. But, you can stand in that design museum for five minutes and you’ll see several clueless adults. And so, how do we create an environment where people can identify their starting point and engage with us? So, we created a competency model where it’s in three tiers. If you’re a beginner, you can start at a friendly place. If you have a little bit of knowledge, we give you a more hands on experience to connect with the object. And, if you’re a designer, there’s still something for you to learn ’cause as designers we are always learning.

So, we created more of that scaffolded approach. And so, in our workshops what we try to do is we put out the challenge that the designer might have had and we tell people, “You solve it.” And, they will often solve it to the best of their ability. But then, to walk that person through an exhibition and say this is how the designers solved it, that’s a moment of excitement because they will find some things, they will feel validated ’cause I also thought about that. And then, there are moments where the designer took it so far that it blows your mind and then you get really impressed by what you’re looking at. And so, that’s the moment where we try to connect people, their own stories, with the object, and its story as well.

And, I think that’s a great approach for any designer to take. ‘Cause, I think, that’s where the authenticity if it comes in, your value in connection comes in, and it’s a lot of times my advice to students as well, is “Don’t just talk about the thing as it’s a separate thing from you. But, how does it connect to you, and how did you come up with those ideas? And, what would those points of connection that you made be?” ‘Cause the person next to you wouldn’t have made those same connections.

Jp:

I’d like to expand a bit about that to think about it as a design faculty member. Something that I often tried to engage with students about is the experience that where they are in the history of design. Especially with the way that we think about graphic design now. How do we capture those stories through portfolios or through projects or through the understanding of history that translates into what they’re going to be doing?

Ruki:

I think that’s what I’ve loved about the Cooper Hewitt’s collection is that… There are over 210,000 objects in the collection, but they don’t just collect the object. They collect the process that goes with it. So, as educators, we are able to show from the very first squiggle on a sheet of paper; all those non precious parts that no one will ever see, we equated to the bulk of an iceberg. How the object is just the tip of it, but there’s so much of the bulk that you don’t get to see. But, that’s the part that helps you understand why the end result looks the way it does.

And, for us to be able to show those in our programs and have people see that… We have this perception with creative professionals that they’re just naturally talented. An idea comes to mind, and poof, the product happens the next day. And, I think we work in educational institutions to really pull out that process and make that process be visible. And museums do that as well. And, I know that we’ve worked very hard as educators to make that part of students’ portfolios, too. We often say, “Don’t just show the final piece, show your sketches, bring your sketchbook to an interview.” I think that’s valuable so people can see what kinds of connections were made. What were those points where you went a different direction? What influenced that? And, the number of ideas you explored before arriving at the final one.

Setting process has become such a critical part of our world. I do sometimes hesitate, though. Because when we open up so much of our process I feel like we are very vulnerable. I mean, think about when you go to a doctors office, have you ever discussed the process of diagnosis with them? We just sort of accept their word. We take the prescription. We go fill out. We swallow that pill. We don’t say, “How did you arrive at this particular diagnosis? And, what was the methodology you used? And, can you tell me what key moment you made a connection that led you to diagnosing me with this?” We don’t do that. We just trust. We don’t have that trust for designer. Somehow we want to see that whole process. So, I hope as we go into the future that we tell those stories. But, those stories serve to empower what we do, and not to create points of vulnerability and lack of trust in what we do.

Jp:

Do you feel we have been able to empower people to continue that exploration from an object, or a sketch, or… I know that the collection has a variety of things from sketches all the way to final production.

Ruki:

Absolutely. I think it… We see it in educational programs. When people look at the entire process, for them value of that piece is instantly… it’s elevated. We find designers are inspired by looking at other designers’ processes. And, we find that people who don’t have a connection to design start to deeply appreciate what they look at. In our programs, we talk about how there’s a difference between being creative and being a creative professional. And, there’s a quote I think it’s a tweet by Bill Murray from years ago when he said, “Every Olympic event should have an average person competing for reference.” And, we use that to explain it because we get caught up in the Olympics with people competing at a second-to-second difference, and if you had an average person running there, you’d see just how much ahead of the game they are. I feel the same way about creative professionals. Everyone can be creative. But, what makes that person the professional is the time, the practice, the commitment, the mental bandwidth they have dedicated to it. And, that’s the difference right there.

And, I think that’s what the process stories at the Cooper Hewitt’s collection do. They show a collective of all these design professionals and what their practice footage looks like. And that’s, I think will be of value to all of us.

Chad:

I was curious if you had a specific example of what… When an object was like that before?

Ruki:

Yeah. There is a case study that we use in our educational programs a lot. It’s the Bradley Timepiece by Eone. It’s a really great story because the designers started with a very different challenge question. They were motivated to make a Braille watch for people who are blind and low vision. But, as they built their prototypes and tested it, they learned that there are a large population of people who are blind and low vision who cannot read Braille. So, they instantly lost a large portion of their audience. And, as they explored it further they changed it.

Chad:

Well, that was kind of one of the main tenets of universal design, that if you make it accessible for the margins then it’s actually useful for everyone.

Ruki:

Right.

Jp:

In relations to design literacy, which he had mentioned a little bit ago. I have a fascination with how the 21st century uses design or design thinking as a way of solving problems, especially with big data and the use of information in politics, in everyday life, in what have you… How do you feel that we are doing as design educators in spreading that literacy, not just for higher education, but perhaps to the K-12 systems, beyond the gate of the K–12 system, beyond the higher ed system? Especially as the Cooper Hewitt sees such a swath of people?

Ruki:

So, I don’t think we’re doing a great job. I do think the playing field is not level right now for access to design and design education. We go into schools around the country and we see that it’s not part of the curriculum and often times it’s not part of even the conversation in those communities. We talk about how diversity is an issue in our various fields of design, but actually we have to look at where that problem… It’s not just a hiring problem. It’s bringing people into the field to begin with problem. And, we need to put a lot more effort into that.

I think it’s doable, though. Because, if you look at even communities that don’t have a lot of access to design. There are resourceful people everywhere. They find ways to hack the world around them to solve problems creatively. It’s just people have never told them its design.

I think about my earliest memory of problem solving is not something that I necessarily solve the problem the best way, but… You’ll probably get a laugh out of this story. But, I had, as a 10 year old, I had a spring bed and I was jumping up and down on it and broke it, as we all do.

Jp:

That’s funny. I broke my grandmothers around that age. (laughs)

Ruki:

Yeah. And, you know when you break a spring bed, you know you’re going to get into trouble. It’s not something you can hide easily ’cause it makes such a horrific sound. It’s just deafening, that boing sound that it makes. So, of course I had to fix my problem. And, my solution was to take a sock, roll it into a ball, and make a soft landing spot for the broken spring. Well, months later, when we moved, my dad discovered this ball and asked me what it was, ’cause it just looked so ridiculous. And, I explained that I broke the bed, the spring was making a noise, and so I muffled the sound. And, he instantly told me I would either be a genius or a moron because I solved the problem for sound. I didn’t think to tie it up. But, it made me instantly… He started to talk to me about what was the problem and why did I decide that that was my problem to solve.

If we had that kind of conversation with people about, “Why did you do that?” Or, “How did you do that?” Or, “What was the best way to solve that problem?” There would be more critical creative thinkers out there. But, at some point we separate that kind of thinking from curriculum in schools and we don’t find points of connection. And, this is a great time to do that. As more schools are embracing STEM and STEAM, design is that common thread where we can actually connect to real world things and help people see that when they’re learning with the circumference of a circle, they can connect it to something in the real world, and build that literacy faster.

So, I really think design has that capacity and that’s why we are still committed to going into schools nationally getting teachers to be designed literate and infusing more design conversations irrespective of what the discipline is ’cause it will be the unifier. It will also be the way for people to build just a mindset to match the world around them.

Jp:

I think it also helps with the understanding that failure is part of the process and not a conclusion. That learning, for instance, in your story, that you solved the problem of noise, but not the problem of the spring. That’s okay. You learned something valuable from that. And, that could be considered perhaps a failure of solving the spring problem, but you will learn something to expand even further out.

Ruki:

Now, I think of it less as failure, because I hate to tell someone, like, “Brace yourself for failure.” Like no one does that. No one prepares for failure. But, I think it speaks very much to our resilience and our ability to work within a constraint. And, I think that’s the powerful part, is when something doesn’t work, we don’t instantly give up because in the nature of our creative process, we didn’t start out with one idea. We never do. People don’t realize that we start out with a reason. This is why a design school process has the 100 thumbnail type of activities, because we have a backup plan for a backup plan for a backup plan, that we have multiple ideas to work through and if one does not work, so be it. We go back and are able to find something else. And, it often works to our benefit ’cause the thing failed for a reason and we fail faster than anyone else. So, we get to the successful solution quicker. So, I think that’s the neat part that we can pass on in our education systems irrespective of the field. And, I think the more important part is that we design for people and we forget that often; that idea of empathy. That you don’t just design for yourself all of the time. You are very aware of the other person’s needs and use and intentions. And, that’s what really makes truly successful design solutions is when you thought all of those things through. You know, what classes in schools today are having a quality conversation about empathy? But, if design were worked in, and we talked about design stories in there, that would come up. We would very quickly learn about they had five different ideas, this one didn’t work with the people and here is why. And so, they went to Plan B or C. I think that’s where I really see that we have so much potential with design in the classroom.

Jp:

I like that. I’m wondering how does someone like me who lives hundreds and thousands of miles away engaged with the Cooper Hewitt to tell those stories? Is there resources? Or, is it accessible from a far distance?

Ruki:

It absolutely is. I think for people who always say, “Oh, I’ve been to your museum. It’s in New York. They’ve only scraped the surface.” Because an exhibition is just the starting point. Almost our entire collection is digitized, so most people can access objects and research them from far away. We show people how to use the website as a research and a resource tool as an education team. So, we’ve built lots of different ways where you can truly lose yourself in the collection, to enjoy the process of discovery. Often with research, we take such a serious position on it that we forget the joy of it is actually to discover.

Jp:

To go down that rabbit hole.

Ruki:

To go down, yes! Where you find things you didn’t expect. Like, that’s what research is supposed to be, not where you make a plan and go from point A to point B, the end. And, so losing yourself in such a vast collection and learning the stories and looking at if you stumbled upon an object and it’s pink, but made in the 80s, what else was made in the 80s at the same time? What other objects are pink of the same value? To have that kind of process where you can lose yourself, the website allows you to do that, the collection site does. And, there’s so many more resources that you can really connect with the Cooper Hewitt and the Smithsonian through online. And, we don’t think people use that enough. So, I’m hoping that our team can help people see the potential there. We have a platform called the Learning Lab, where you can search the databases in the entire Smithsonian, so the 19 Smithsonian museums; the nine research centers in the zoo. And, if you did a search on a regular search engine versus there, you’d see the difference because you see that in the learning lab, you’d get a range of resources from… You know, we show a common example of when you search the word “frog,” you get every painting that has a frog how the zoo has frog cages, articles on species from the science research centers. The breadth of resources that you get, so then you can make truly interesting connections, ’cause you’re not getting the same type of resource over and over again. And, the neat thing about that tool is you can… It sort of simulates the exhibition processes. So, you can collect what you’re looking at, save it, and create it; build sort of a format that you can share with other people.

Chad:

That sounds so futuristic.

Ruki:

We put so much pressure on how we need disruptors today and everyone needs to be innovative. But, we aren’t talking about how to do that. If, in your school classrooms, we don’t teach people how to generate multiple ideas, we just say… We give them a very defined problem and they reach for that solution. But, if that’s what we’re expecting, then how we teach, what we teach, how we inspire, that has to change. So museums can be such a vital partners in learning that discovery and inspiration process. I really think… I feel like I’m case in point, because I’ve used my design training and education to solve almost any kind of problem. All of the different roles that I’ve had, I’ve always approached it with the mindset that a designer would, because it’s how I know how to make it a manageable problem. So, you take it apart and you think about what is the framework? Or, who’s my audience? So, even in areas where I’ve been so out of my depth and out of my comfort zone, the point of comfort has been to think it through like a design problem because that framework is so versatile.

When you start to do that, it suddenly feels more manageable. In my previous roles of managing people, or time, or money, or complex processes, I don’t have training in doing that. But, I found that my training as a designer gave me the confidence to take that on ’cause if we’re solving problems of access of water in a developing nation, surely I can figure out how to work the Excel spreadsheet. So, it sort of gives me a certain confidence, crazy or otherwise, that I really think my training and education in design gives me that I haven’t seen what too many of my colleagues. So yes, it definitely gives you that sense of managing your fear better.

Jp:

Yeah, I like that.

Chad:

So, at the beginning of our conversation we talked a little bit about this idea of that when we’re young we’re so imaginative and we don’t always think of all the barriers that could exist between ourselves and being an astronaut, or dreaming of all the things that could be. From your perspective working in the museum everyday, oftentimes, you know, we’re thinking about looking at objects that have been designed and it’s like thinking about the past and with the intent that you’re making people think towards the future. What do you think is the next step? Or, what would you wish for the designers and makers of tomorrow? What do you think is the next step in design? Or, the next need thing?

Ruki:

So, the museum, even though I think we have… there’s this perception that the museum focuses on stories of the past. The Cooper Hewitt is truly a museum of the future. ‘Cause a lot of the exhibitions ask very provocative questions about where we’re heading as people and as designers, and what are the problems of the future? We have looked at things like, “If all our vehicles are autonomous, what does that do to the city? And, where does designer responsibility come in? Shouldn’t we be thinking about sustainability more? How many objects are we putting out into the world? Who are we designing for?” When we say, “Social impact for good, who’s good?” How are we defining some of those? And so, it’s a great place for us to learn from the lessons of the past, but definitely to ask better questions as we go into the future. There are so many things that we’re dealing with today from climate change to other social crises, there were unintended consequences. And, we’re trying to… we’re in a reactive place right now, I think, trying to solve for problems that we unintentionally created. But, if the designers of today could think about that just a little bit more, and we thought about all the potential consequences… So, if we used a certain material, what does that material evolve to? Or, what are its worst consequences? Maybe we will get to a different place in the future than the reactive place that we are right now. I think those are the quality… That’s the kind of conversation I enjoy at the museum. We’re really thinking about the impact of design, not just today. But, the potential of the future.

Jp:

Well, Ruki, as we close, we like to ask these little quick fire questions, We call it the recommendation list.

Ruki:

(laughs)

Jp:

Would you be okay if I ask you a couple of recommendations?

Ruki:

Sure, yeah!

Jp:

You travel a lot. I’m wondering if you have a good travel tip for me. I’m starting to do a lot of travel with my sabbatical. Any travel tips from an expert?

Ruki:

I would say travel with your eyes wide open. Because, one, it keeps you from tripping. But, two, I think we get so caught up in books, and magazines, and tablets, and devices, that we often forget to just look around us.

Even when we travel were so keen on taking a picture of things that we forget to actually look at the real thing. That, we’re in such a visual and designed world we could all just take a moment an hone our observation skills, ’cause that will last with us longer than that picture will.

Jp:

Cool, I like that. What would be the best thing for a kid to learn design with? Like, a project or interaction with some sort of device, or apparatus, or what have you… What would you suggest?

Ruki:

I think with kids, what we enjoy doing are giving them really outrageous problems. Because, if we get too functional and too practical at that age, then we’ve already kind of crushed that, “I want to go to the moon,” mentality. That at that age, I think, why not solve for crazy problems? ‘Cause if you think about it, the problems we have today are pretty crazy. And, if we get people into that mindset of really solving for things that don’t exist, I think we’d be in a much more exciting future.

To give you an example, we had an exhibition called, “Senses: Design beyond vision,” at the museum. And, we challenged kids to design utensils to eat things that you wouldn’t think about, like clouds, and velcro. It was amazing to see that they didn’t challenge that problem at all. They just ran with it. And, the things they came up with, I think they could have practical applications for other things. They could modify the solutions, but it came from a place of complete wild imagination. And so, my advice would be less about tools and more about the kinds of problems we’re putting out there.

Chad:

I’m also… I’m always interested in knowing what people are reading. So, what do you think is a piece of writing that you’ve read as of late that you think hasn’t been widely read enough?

Ruki:

I read a lot. I like to… I don’t like to read on a single topic at any given time. I read a lot of biographies. I like to read what’s going on that’s relevant to today’s society a little bit. I read a lot of magazines, too. And, just to get kind of the quick brain thinking about a quick idea quickly. But, I have to say that I like to read comics. I have learned more from Calvin and Hobbes then I have from reading The Art of War. Because, Calvin and Hobbes makes you think about how are you really looking at the world, and it challenges you to see things that you aren’t always observant of. ‘Cause the way Calvin sees these things are… It really challenges you. And so, I like to compare, have something that balances my reading out. So, I highly recommend Calvin and Hobbes. At least revisiting it. There’s a great volume that has everything compiled. Bill Watterson’s work, too. And, I think what I enjoy about that is there’s a little bit of his process in there. And, it’s his Batman drawings when he was a seven year old, or 8 year old, and how some of that influenced his drawing later. So right now, I think I’m a little caught up in Bill Watterson’s process of Calvin and Hobbes.

But, a book I think that’s blown my mind recently is Kat Holmes’ Mismatch. It’s a really great book on inclusive design. So, I’m reading that, too.

Jp:

Best food to eat on the road?

Ruki:

Best food to eat on the road. That’s interesting. We’re on the road a lot. I don’t know. I like to pick things that are local to that place ’cause it… It’s just, for me it’s part of the experience. So, I try not to have the one comfort thing. You know, as you’re walking by usually it’s the packaging is what draws me in. And, sometimes I regret those decisions. But, I like to patron something that’s local to that place.

Jp:

Yeah, that’s great that’s a great one, I like that.

Well Ruki, thank you so much for your time. I greatly appreciate it and look forward to interacting more with the Cooper Hewitt. And, hopefully you’ll enjoy Seattle a little bit more and we will see you here some other time.

Ruki:

Absolutely. Thanks so much. This was such a joy.

Chad:

Thank you.