On this episode, we talk with Scott Tong, a startup advisor in San Francisco, California. Through his career working at RMB Vivid, IDEO, Pinterest, and co-founding IFTTT, Tong has developed the unique perspective of designer as entrepreneur. In our conversation, Scott talks about how his passion for drawing led him to finding design, how learning design thinking helped prepare him to co-found a company, and the value of living in ambiguity.

Photo credit: Mia Ketterling

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Chad:

Scott Tong, thank you for joining us on This is Design School, today. It’s been a long time coming, but I’m really excited to talk to you.

Scott:

My pleasure. Thank you for having me today.

Chad:

So, one thing we wanted to start with today was, what’s your journey in design? Then, how did you find design, and how do you know it was what you want to do?

Scott:

How I found design was completely through a different passion, which was drawing. I was always scribbling things on paper as a young student—probably when I should have been paying attention to the other subjects that were going on. That happened all throughout elementary school, through high school. One of my favorite classes in high school was art—simply because I got to spend time drawing and it felt like a break from the rest of the day.

And, when I entered into college, the University of Washington, it was the first realization that I could take whatever class I wanted to, instead of classes I was told to. So, I took full advantage of that and spent a ton of time in the School of Art just, you know, taking every possible drawing class that I could; figure drawing, up to the level where you had to basically declare your major as art before you could take any further drawing classes. And, I think just purely by exposure of being in the School of Art building, I started to see work on the wall that resembled what I thought was design. And, I also found out, I think, maybe one quarter too late what the requirements were to apply to the design school. So, I ended up spending an extra year, you know, taking general education requirements, spending more time in the Art Building, before I ended up applying to the design program at University of Washington. That’s kind of how design fell into my lap, so to speak.

Chad:

Yeah. What was the tipping point? Why design over art, I guess?

Scott:

Yeah. I don’t think it was immediately apparent, to be honest with you. One school that I spent a lot of time in was the School of Architecture, and I was working at a small architecture firm during college as well. And, it was another expression of drawing for me, but it was from a much more technical angle. And, the University of Washington had a great faculty member named Francis Ching, who basically wrote the, I guess I should say, drew the design drawing book for most of the architecture schools, I think, in the United States. It was fascinating to watch him draw on, what was then, the overhead projector live perspective drawings that were all in proportion with human figures inside.

Jp:

Wow. That’s amazing.

Scott:

It was magical to watch him do that in front of a class of, you know, a couple hundred people, maybe.

So, I explored drawing through many different avenues, and architecture as a form of design as well. So, I think serendipitously, through my love of drawing, I was able to find these applications of design that I didn’t really think of as design. I just thought like, “Oh, these are just different ways to draw.” And, logos are another example of drawing, or symbols. And so, they were just on a spectrum for me. And, I was excited to explore that spectrum, I guess.

Chad:

So, when you finally got into design and you started taking classes and learning more about design, was the the shift from drawing to doing work with, maybe, more intention or briefs hard?

Scott:

I don’t know if it was hard. It was a lot of work. It was challenging to try to work in different ways. But, that was also part of the thing that was exciting about it, I think. If I make an analogy to the architecture school, I didn’t know how to draw plan drawings and perspective drawings, it was just an application. And, if I think about semiotics, and symbols, and data visualization, things that are taught at the University of Washington design program, those were different applications. And, it was just an expansion of my understanding of what those skills could be used for. So, I don’t know that it was hard, but it was a lot of work.

I feel like the University of Washington has an amazing design program. And, I was really lucky to happen to be a student that happened to live in Washington State. So, it was probably one of the most stressful times of my educational career, at least, because it felt like at the time so much was riding on it. But, I’m so glad that I did and was exposed to the faculty there and their care and instruction that helped me be set up for success, I think, in the long term as a design professional.

Jp:

So, now you have a degree, and you’re in Seattle. But, we are here in San Francisco. How did we get from Seattle to San Francisco,

Scott:

There was a visiting professor, at the University of Washington, who taught a publication design class. And, as a senior, I started to think a lot more about, “Well, where am I going to work after school?” And so, I got my portfolio ready. And, I just wanted to submit the portfolio to this former professor for feedback. Like, “Hey, I’m going to enter the professional world, I’d love to get a professional opinion as to how my portfolio looks, and what I might change in order to kind of get to the jobs that I think I want to develop my career in.” And, thankfully, he said, “Why don’t you come intern with me?” And so, that was Brian Boram. He was, he still runs a studio in Seattle called RMB Vivid, and I spent about two years there out of school. It was a really small firm—about seven people. I learned a lot about production. I learned a lot about managing clients. I was answering phones. I was making copies. I was, you know, running around the office doing everything that a young professional can, just to soak up as much knowledge as I could.

And then, about two years after being at that small studio, I felt like I wanted to spread my wings a little bit. And, I found a job posting online for Designer at IDEO, in Palo Alto Bay Area. I had no idea what a graphic designer would do at a firm that was really, really well known for product design. And, at that time, they had zero capability when it came to, kind of, graphic design as an offering. It was kind of an afterthought. And, I had no idea what I would do there as a designer. In fact, I was hoping when I went down there for the interview, that they would just blow me away with all the cool work that they had going on, especially from a graphic standpoint. So, I think at that point, I really considered myself a graphic designer. And my, my view of what design was, was very myopic. Graphic design is Design.

Chad:

Mm hmm.

Scott:

Other stuff is… They call it design, but that’s not really the Design that I care about.

Chad:

Right. Did you know that when you came across that job description?

Scott:

Well, the job description was looking for a graphic designer.

Chad:

Yeah. But, did you know that “IDEO” was IDEO?

Scott:

Yeah. In fact, Karen [Cheng], I believe Karen played the infamous Nightline shopping cart video.

Jp:

(laughs)

Scott:

Which, I think many folks who have been through design school, have have seen. And, it was surreal to think that this design firm that was on the news, that probably made more of a name for itself as a design firm than any other firm in the world, at that time, would be willing to interview somebody, you know, two years out of school with a graphic design background for a discipline that they don’t really have thriving at that time, at least.

Jp:

And so, you got the job. And, you’re at IDEO. How long were you at IDEO for?

Scott:

I was there for six years.

Jp:

Six years?

Scott:

Yes.

Jp:

So, doing starting the design. What did you end up…?

Scott:

Yeah, I had no idea what I was doing when I first started, as many folks don’t when they start a new job. But, I was doing some of that deck polishing work in the beginning. And then, I started… I also brought some my package design experience. So, I designed one of the first packages for the Western Digital, My Book portable hard drive line, which also IDEO designed the hardware for, as well. So, I was able to bring my packaging experience to the table.

But, one of the things that blew my mind about IDEO, was it really expanded my definition of what Design was, and what it was capable of impacting. I, you know, as I viewed myself as a graphic designer, I really cared about aesthetics; how things looked in relation to each other on a page, or a poster, or a package, or a deck, you know, narrative deck at the end of the day with a lot of these projects. So, I came in as sort of a craftsperson; thinking about the final execution of something. But, the more I got staffed on projects, I started to understand that I could actually affect the narrative; not just how it looked at the end of the project, but actually what the content was within there.

And so, slowly, over a six year period, I was able to work my way upstream into much more strategic projects where we’re less about telling a story that’s already been defined, and more about defining what the problem is to begin with, and doing that with multi-disciplinary folks. Doing that with other designers that have different completely different specializations, or design researchers who completely shifted my viewpoint about how and why things are created, and the process of developing those ideas for the good of people, basically, and how to triangulate that with things like business feasibility, or technical viability as well. So, it was it was probably the most important career decision that I didn’t know that I made until I made it, and even after I made it. The learning continued on for for the duration of my time there.

Chad:

Was was moving forward in that, was that something that you felt the team and people around you were inviting you into, or something that you actively had to jump and push into to advance your thinking and advance the work you were doing there?

Scott:

I think it was actually the former. I wish I could say I had the foresight to sit and to think, you know, if I work my way upstream in the process, I’m going to be way more valuable. But, in fact, IDEO is known for Human Centered Design as a process, as a methodology, and a lot of it was learned through osmosis. First, just getting exposed to it. I didn’t have a strong bias for Human Centered Design when I entered in to the organization. Again, I was really heavily focused on aesthetics, and visual relationships, and visual communication Design. But, Communication Design started to expand into, “Well, what are we communicating? Why are we communicating?” And, thankfully IDEO, not only was leading in that conversation, but also embracing folks building their skills in those departments, in those areas.

Chad:

So, if I remember right, either during or right after your time with IDEO, you helped co-found IFTT, right?

Scott:

That’s right.

Chad:

How did that happen?

Scott:

So, there were three friends. We all worked at IDEO. And, we all came from different parts of the business. I spent the majority of my time in the consulting arm of the business. So go out and see clients, and work on projects for them, and kind of rinse and repeat. And, I would travel the world to go do those things. The the other founder worked in the toy lab. So, he was, you know, dreaming up ideas, doing kind of hardware, software, integration stuff. And then, they would pitch ideas to big toy companies. So, a completely different business model. And, the main founder, Linden, who is, or was, the CEO, he came from an internal knowledge sharing tools team. So, he was creating, kind of, like a Facebook for IDEO. And, it was helpful to show everybody within the company what you worked on, what projects you had been a part of, so that when they were going to go staff new projects, they could find the right experts to compile the right… to put the right team together.

So, we would, just as friends, travel from Palo Alto to San Francisco after work. We would often carpool together and just talk about ideas. And, one idea that came up was called If This Then That (IFTTT), which was basically a way to connect different services together through a pretty simple conditional logic statement. And, it was Linden’s brilliant idea. And, it was fascinating to, kind of, try to help develop that in these car rides home. So, just seeing something go from zero to one, from conversations in a car to a product that people can sign up for was an amazing journey.

Jp:

And being a co founder, I imagine that was meaning less and less design work, the way that you started design.

Listen on

Scott:

Oh, yeah. It’s kind of like you’re doing a bunch of things that you’re absolutely not qualified to do, but nobody else is going to do them so you’re still responsible for it. I was, you know, watching the budget. I was doing business development, you know, all things that are kind of on the periphery of consulting, but certainly not my specialization, in terms of a craftsperson. But, it was a school of hard knocks. It was great to get that exposure, because that time period, I was only there for about two years, was the most condensed and exponential growth I’ve had as a professional. I think, if IDEO kind of expanded the definition of design, for me, IFTTT really expanded the definition of entrepreneurship because it’s a lot about prioritization, team building, having a vision, being able to articulate that vision, there’s a little bit of selling involved, there’s still all this stuff that you have to do to build the actual product and craft it as well. And, seeing how all of that fits together is a fascinating puzzle. And, there’s no blueprint for it. And so, I think a lot of IDEO prepared me for being comfortable in the ambiguity. And then, having confidence that even in the ambiguity, you could make progress.

Jp:

I was just gonna say confidence felt like another component of that. Oh, that’s what you just said. Because there’s a lot that when we usually talk to people that are starting their own business, have had their own business, or starting some sort of new job, they talk about that imposter syndrome. Can you perhaps speak a little bit about when did that end for your or when did you feel and and to…?

Scott:

Yeah, that’s a great question. As a young professional, I never would have in my wildest dreams imagined that I would have worked at one of the best design firms in the world. Right? Like, most people that work, that study design, they would love to be in a position where they could say that. And, by that point in my career, I had done that. Six years at one of the best firms in the world. So, I was very fortunate to have fell into that position, and you know, obviously worked hard to do it. But, there was a lot of timing and luck involved there as well. The right opportunity showed up at the right time. I got exposure to really amazing life changing methodologies that I still keep with me today.

So, I felt like everything after IDEO was almost like betting with house money. It’s like, I don’t want to come across as arrogant in saying like, “Oh, I’m hot shit because I happened to work at a really great place.” I feel very fortunate to have done that. But, having already pushed the boundaries, why not push it as far as you can go, was kind of my mindset, and still is my mindset today. I think, “Well, what else can you do? Where else can you take this? And, who else can you bring along to enjoy the ride with you?” And that’s sort of my M.O., to this day.

Chad:

The bar just keeps getting higher.

Scott:

Yeah, I don’t… That’s one way to put it. There’s this guy that I follow named Sam Harris. He’s kind of a neuro… I think, a neuroscientist and philosopher. And, he has this really interesting analogy about problems. And, he says that a lot of people feel like, “Oh, if I just get these problems out of the way, these couple problems that are in my way right now, I’ll be happy.” But, the reality is that couldn’t be further from the truth. Once you solve those problems, there’s new problems to solve. So, the analogy that he made was about video games. So, your reward for beating a level a very difficult level in a video game is another more difficult level, right? Typically. The levels just keep coming. So, rather than feeling like there’s going to be this threshold that I crossed, that’s going to make me feel a certain way, I’d rather enjoy the process of addressing those problems as they come along thoughtfully with the wisdom that I have, the experience that I have, and worry less about what the destination happens to be. You know? Obviously, you’re directing yourself in some way, but taking time to be present and embracing the fun and the challenge of solving the problems that are in front of you in anticipation that there are going to be new problems that are going to be right over the horizon. And, that’s just a continual process throughout, hopefully, the rest of your life. And, the attitude that you take towards it can really define your happiness, your engagement, those kinds of things.

Jp:

And, how do you feel you define your happiness and engagement in the position that you’re in now?

Scott:

I start to think a lot more about principles these days. And, I’m a big fan of Ray Dalio and his ability to articulate his thinking so that others can challenge his thinking as well. And, I try to do that and try to think, “Well, why did I make a certain decision the way that I did?” And, “What are other perspectives to how that decision could be made?” And, “What’s the best way to make that decision?” And, not having too much of an ego about you know, the way I made the decision was the right way. What I should care about, if we’re looking with an eye towards progresses, what’s the best decision? Not, who made the best decision? So, I try to keep that in mind. And, think through better ways to make decisions for myself, but also for the folks that I’m working with, or the people that are in my network, and to challenge my thinking—to be on a plane where we can have a really good, heated, or hearty conversation about it. We both benefit, or everybody benefits, from the conversation to hopefully have a better principle about what to do in a similar situation in the future.

jp:

Do you think part of that perspective or point of view came out of some of the things you’ve been doing since then, of leading bigger teams?

Scott:

Yeah, certainly a lot of that has because leadership is often about scaling impact through people. As a craftsperson, your impact is in your hands. Literally. The things that you make are an expression of your impact. And, there are inputs from other disciplines, obviously, that helps you make the decisions that ultimately lead to the final execution, whatever that may be. But, as you start to mentor, what you’re trying to do is help more junior folks see around corners maybe that they haven’t seen before, and help make their workflow more efficient, more impactful, or inspire them and energize them. Right? And, as you move up to pure management, you’re trying to create the environment in which people can do the most effective work. So, you’re scaling the best practices that you’ve learned throughout your career, and passing that cultural knowledge down to the people that you’re associated with, and you work with. And then, the higher up you go, the more impact that is because you’re scaling less through your craft and more through the people that work with you. That’s how cultures are built, is by passing that information down. And, hopefully you’re passing good, useful information down.

So, we accomplished quite a bit at IFTTT. And so, we worked on everything from the brand to the first version of the app. And, it was a great point to take a step back and reflect as to what we had accomplished and where I wanted to take that skill set next.

Jp:

So, you had mentioned that you were at IFTTT for Two years, is that correct?

Scott:

Right.

Jp:

What was after that?

Scott:

Yeah. So, I took a little bit of a break. And, Pinterest was an amazing confluence of a very engaging product that tapped into a human behavior in ways that very few other products had tapped into, especially during that time. So, I had validated a lot of my kind of product thinking and product execution chops when I was at lift, and I wanted to see if I could help scale that into another organization that had quite an amazing trajectory ahead of it.

Jp:

What I really like thinking about how you’ve gone from all of these different companies, is perhaps I can challenge you to say that you’re trying to find a way of accessibility into design, or into technology or information. So, Pinterest is about finding those connections between inspiration, creativity, and execution. IFTTT is about finding technology and accessibility to those technologies, sometimes one or individually. IDEO is about finding connections with products. Do you see that, perhaps, you’re in this trajectory and, maybe there’s something next that goes beyond that?

Scott:

That’s a really interesting way to look at it. I don’t know if I’ve thought about it, necessarily, in that way. But, if I think back to my childhood as a bilingual person, my parents are from Hong Kong. But, I was born and raised in the United States. I’ve always been, kind of like, a translator of sorts. Like, “Oh, how does that work in this culture? And, how can I explain it in this other culture so that somebody else understands it?” And, a lot of design is being that intermediary between what the intended message is and what the received message is. So, I’m fascinated that you brought that up. Because there is a bit of a connection there. And, in fact, even beyond my post at Pinterest, you know, I think a lot about the transmission of ideas, and how that happens through, you know, things like a message on a billboard, or an application, or a piece of writing. And, all of those things are about transmitting ideas. And, some are more effective or efficient in certain contexts. And so, I guess I’ve always hovered around that idea, and maybe not been super conscious of it.

Jp:

Yeah. It’s kind of interesting. I’ve been trying to figure out, as I’m kind of in the mid of my career now, what is it that defines what the first 20 years was? And, what will the next 20 years look like? And, I think technique, I think is what has identified me.

Scott:

Interesting.

Jp:

Or, the way that I see myself; the way people see myself. I don’t know if I feel like I am I’m a technical person. And, even through concept development, even through implementation, I’m always thinking through the process. I’m always thinking about the the techniques of which things take place, and what have you. But, I really love translation as yours. That’s an interesting example, or an interesting way of thinking that that’s the way we do design. Or, another way of doing design.

Scott:

Yeah. Sure. It’s fascinating to think about, even the paradox of the term design. Design has probably 10 or 15 different definitions in the English library, or dictionary, I should say. And, they’re all correct. But, when a person is speaking in conversation about, “Oh, can you hand me over the designs?” Or, “That was by design.” Or, “That’s the design process.” They’re all saying things that, in their own mind, make sense. But, they may be be lost in translation when it’s being received on the other end. And, it’s kind of the irony as well that designers often think about clarity, and simplicity, and how the system works together. But, in the the word that describes their entire profession, the definition is so fragmented that it’s hard to understand. And so, I think artists and designers get conflated a lot by folks that don’t understand the profession, or the discipline. And, I think there’s a lot that still needs to be articulated better by ourselves, as designers, to help others understand us better. Because, I think, you know, back to your point about translation. If we want people to understand what we’re thinking, we have to be able to articulate ourselves. And, understanding is also a process that requires listening. So, we have to understand which audience we’re designing for.

Chad:

So, after Pinterest, what have you done since then? What are you doing now?

Scott:

Yeah, so I had this amazing opportunity to join a venture capital firm called IMO Ventures, as what’s called an Entrepreneur in Residence.

Chad:

Mm hmm.

Scott:

And, what I’ve learned over my, I guess, six months doing this so far, is that there is high variability in the title, Entrepreneur in Residence. And, there’s also high variability in the different aspects of venture capital that I’ve learned about, so far. So, I’ve been on the receiving end of venture capital money before, through If This Then That, and then also working at a venture backed company in Pinterest. But, I’ve never been privy to the decision making that goes on behind the scenes as to why certain companies or industries get investment and why others don’t.

So, for example, blockchain and cryptocurrency a couple years ago were very heavily invested in by almost every venture capital firm out there. And then, it sort of started to slow down. Like, I don’t know why that wave happened or didn’t happen, but you kind of just hear about it being in San Francisco. So, I wanted to get a little bit more exposure as to why and how those decisions can be made. And, I’ve been really happy to get, kind of, plugged into that world and just learn through, again, sort of, opportunity, luck, osmosis, and paying attention.

Chad:

And, it’s also kind of interesting because, over the span of the career, so far, that we’ve talked about, you’ve gone from being so far on the craft end, to now, seemingly, on the exact opposite end of that. How has your definition of design changed in that time? And, what is the power of design for you today?

Scott:

That’s a great question. And, a loaded one!

Scott:

Yeah.

Scott:

I think it’s all connected, honestly. It’s part of a continuum, or an ecosystem rather, that gets abstracted. And, being able to articulate the connections between the abstract and the concrete is what designers are often really, really good at. They can turn the abstract idea into something that is understandable and has some tangible form.

I’m still not sure what that means for the venture capital world. But, if I was to take a stab at it, I would say it’s companies, right? They’re betting on some sort of future state, and there are companies that can see that state into reality through their abilities, whether that’s making something tangible or creating a service or something of the like. And then, that need gets served, and then a market is created. That’s a chain of many parts of an ecosystem working together in concert to that end.

And, I think that kind of connection exists in lots of ways. So, one I one way to kind of think about that is, coming from a graphic designer for example, the atomic unit is a letter. And then, a letter is combined with other letters to create a word. A bunch of words are combined together to create a sentence which create a paragraph, which then are set, as a graphic designer, into a page. And, that page has other elements. And, you put lots of pages in a narrative format together, and you structure those into chapters. And, those chapters are put into a book. And, that book is put into a library. Alright? And, that library is organized by topics. So, that’s one level. If you think about the scientific level, there are atoms that create compounds, that create the substances that we put together to create new things, new objects, new tools for ourselves, that get traded—create markets, right? And, I think there are lots of analogies like that, that exist where the atomic unit is connected to the macro ecosystem. And, venture capital is another example of that. It’s like at a higher level, abstracted thinking about some future state that the world could be in through a service, or a technology, or a trend, or cultural influence, whatever that may be. And, the execution ends up being a company that makes something at the end of the day. And, the various products that they create, or services that they create. They’re all connected. And, it’s fascinating to just be a student to see how those dots connect.

Chad:

That activity at scale, in and of itself, is design.

Scott:

Indeed. Yeah. And so, design… I think your question was, like, what’s the definition of design now? I think it is simultaneously, the execution and the abstraction at a systems level, and how those things are all connected. And, it’s neither one, nor the other. And, it can be really easy for your attention to be lured into focusing on one level of conversation, or one level that ecosystem. But, I think over time, what I’ve learned is that they’re intimately connected. And, it will surprise you in what ways they are connected. And, the better that you understand that connection, the more you can affect it in the ways that you intend. So, if I was going back to my days as a young designer at IDEO, and I’m just making the typography look good on a presentation, what I’ve learned since then, is like, what was the problem that we were trying to solve that led to this being the appropriate typography to tell the story in this presentation? And, that connection is much deeper than just whatever decision I made as a person that cares about aesthetics. It’s much more about the problem that you’re trying to solve and who you’re trying to solve it for.

Scott:

Do you still identify as a graphic designer?

Scott:

I think graphic design is something that I will always have in my skill set. But, I think Design as a discipline is much bigger than any one toolset that I have, you know? In my career, I’ve been fortunate to play many roles; storyteller, copywriter, project manager, you know, people manager, and the common thread there is that I think about them through a design lens. And, that lens is, again, kind of trying to see what the end outcome, the desirable outcome is, but also trying to understand what system that outcome lives in, and the connections between them.

So, I think I’ll probably refer to myself as a designer until the day I die. But, I think graphic design just happens to be one of many skill sets that I have in my tool bag, I guess. I wouldn’t refer to myself as a graphic designer. Although, I have a deep love for, and appreciation for, graphic design as a skill set and as a way of solving problems—some sets of problems.

Jp:

Well Scott, we are almost out of time here. But, we have one last section that we call the recommendation list. And, we thought since we’re here in San Francisco, we thought we would get some recommendations from you. The first one that I have is thinking about, what are the types of courses, what are the types of knowledge bases that my students should know when they graduate?

Scott:

I think coding, surprisingly, would be one of the things that I would recommend people learn how to do. Not necessarily because I think everybody should be a developer, but I think there are applicable skills of structured thinking that exist in coding, that would be really helpful for a designer to be able to structure their thinking and articulate their ideas in in a similar way.

I am an avid reader of Ray Dalio, who kind of lays out principles for life and for work in an almost an algorithmic way. And, it’s in a way that people can access and follow and it gives them the vocabulary to have a discussion about what their own principles are. And so, those two things are sort of connected to me. Principles are sort of little algorithms for any person to refer back to and help them make, hopefully, better and better decisions over time.

Jp:

So in other words, if then statements.

Scott & Jp:

(laugh)

Scott:

Got me.

Chad:

I’m always interested in keeping up on reading new things. I’m curious if there’s an article or a book, or even a podcast, or something that you’ve listened to, or read lately, that you felt was really impactful for you that you feel like, hasn’t gotten enough play, or read.

Scott:

Yeah, so I mentioned one already, which is Ray Dalio and Principles I probably ad nauseam have recommended that that book over the last two years or so.

One that I refer to when I think about leading people is the book Drive by Daniel Pink. There’s three main principles in there which are about autonomy, mastery, and purpose, which I think are really important for building a career that you want. You know, being in Silicon Valley, Peter Thiel’s, Zero to One and Eric Ries’ The Lean Startup method are kind of like required reading to just understand the mechanics of how product development happen at a rapid pace here, and any technology company. And, I guess, what company is not a technology company nowadays? And then, there’s some classics, like Measure What Matters by John Doerr. Those would be probably fairly standard on the reading list.

JP:

Because we’re recording here in San Francisco, what are some things that we should see that are cultural icons or that really pinpoint that design quality of this city?

Scott:

Wow, that’s a tough one. I think one of the things I’ve noticed in my 13 years here in San Francisco is that it’s always been a place of, kind of, rebellion a little bit. It’s a place for misfits. The, you know, fight for equality happened here. The Beat Generation was here, the Black Panther movement started in Oakland. A lot of the early innovators in the technology space were trying to change the world. The hippie movement, as well, right? There’s so many that started here. And, it’s one of the, I’d say most international cities, especially on the west coast. So, there’s an exchange of ideas that happens here more freely and with less judgment than most places, I think, in the United States.

So, it changes from time period to time period, what that that conversation happens to be about. Whether it’s, you know, the government, or technology, or equality. And there’s landmarks to every one of those things here. You know? I think the most recent ones that you can start seeing are literally changing the skyline of San Francisco. You know? There are some of the oldest buildings in the United States are in in San Francisco. So, there isn’t any one place. But, as you look at the cultural landmarks of, you know, Victorian homes, or these public parks, or now these tall skyscrapers, or even the changing way that mid-market has been housed with technology companies like Twitter, and Uber, and Square, etc. You kind of have to appreciate how everything has been mashed together, and how, no matter what your belief is about change, there’s so much of it happening here and it’s hard to ignore. And, you can’t really hold on to any one time period because it’s probably a fleeting moment. So, really just appreciating that the pace is what makes this place really interesting and the open mindedness and the, kind of, challenging nature of it, and willingness to stand out is really hard to replicate. And, it’s one of the really special reasons to to appreciate being here in this time and space right now. And, know that 5 to 10 years from now it’s going to be completely different.

Scott:

Our last one is, what are you listening to these days?

Scott:

I’ve been listening to a lot of podcasts lately. And, one that probably you’re familiar with is Planet Money. And, it’s fascinating to me because it’s really not about money. Money is part of what they talk about. But, it’s about stories. And, it’s about human connection to those stories and the economics behind it.

I talked a little bit earlier about kind of the connection between the macro picture and the micro, and I think planet money does a really good job at at articulating how something like recycling, for example, was started in a, you know, very humble way, and then turned into this big economic machine. And then, that economic machine has consequences for the rest of us today. And, how those those narratives kind of shift over time, and I think it’s a master class in getting people interested in a subject that actually sounds really boring, but is really fascinating when you when you tell a compelling story.

Jp:

Well, Scott, thank you so much for sharing your story with us and being on This is Design School.

Scott:

Thank you. Honored to be here. Thank you so much.

Chad:

Thanks, Scott.