On this episode, Rebecca Stewart-Johnson, a Tacoma-based designer, talks about the work to get that first job, the bravery it takes to approach new people, and how to keep working and learning through life changes.

JP:

Rebecca Stewart-Johnson, thank you for coming onto our show.

REBECCA:

You bet.

JP:

I thought we would get started by talking about where and how your got started.

REBECCA:

As far as from design school on career-wise, or…?

JP:

Sure.

REBECCA:

…Where would you most like to hear?

CHAD:

I think we can start with school unless you found design before you were in school.

REBECCA:

Umm. I did find design before I was in school. But, I didn’t realize you could make a career out of it. I grew up in an artistic family, so marketing and design was always part of the family functioning with a business. But, going to school, I thought I would major in business and business marketing. Then, I ended up going abroad for a long time—a semester, then two j-terms. I kind of said, “Oh, I should probably declare a major.”

And, as I was in Italy, Jp had just been hired and I thought I could skip a couple of design classes and just ease my way back into getting a design degree. He definitely reminded me that, through a very nice email that was very diplomatic, but I had a bit of an anxiety attack.

CHAD:

What did the email say?

REBECCA:

It was…

JP:

Spill the beans, come on. (laughs)

REBECCA:

(laughs) It was more, “I’m sorry that you feel…” Oh, what did you say? It was like…

CHAD:

Google’s still got to have this somewhere.

REBECCA:

It still does. I had an MSN account then, which doesn’t exist anymore I don’t think.

But, it was just, “Hey, Professor Avila, I’m a junior and I’m awesome. And, I want to be a designer, but I don’t want to take your two intro classes because I feel like I already know everything because I’m amazing.” (laughs) And, he wrote back and was like, “Umm, actually no. I’ve restructured the whole design department and this is what you need to do.” Which was really just much more beneficial because I sounded like I had a big ego, which is ridiculous.

But, I just wanted to stay with my friends, who none of them did study abroad. It worked out that when I came back and it was like bootcamp for design. Before Jp came there were no computers, there was no Adobe, there was nothing. It was hand-drawn everything. And, then once he got here, I learned everything I needed to know to get a job, thank goodness.

So, from the moment I think I got back until the moment I graduated, and even until I got my first job that summer, I was Jp’s little sidekick doing every type of possible thing I could learn how to do design, whether it was web or presentation or typography. I worked for on-campus organizations for a while, and then finally landed an interview at Pierce Transit. And, then I was able to get that job.

JP:

And, Pierce Transit, for those that are not in the Pierce County area…

REBECCA:

Yeah, it’s the public transportation agency. I worked there for five-and-a-half years and did a bunch of freelance on the side because, I never wanted to stop learning. I think that’s one thing that is so critical. There’s always someone coming up from under you that’s better, faster, more curious, has more knowledge and can do it better than you. So, it’s always been navigational skill sets to always continue to learn and be curious and to keep up.

So, Pierce Transit offered a bunch of training that I could continue to learn and pursue classes I could take in Seattle. They sent me to MacWorld, the last one that Steve Jobs was at. And, I worked with an incredible team of designers there.

Then, we worked on some projects, Jp and I. And Chad, didn’t you come when you were first learning to be a designer?

CHAD:

I believe I came and job shadowed you for a day.

REBECCA:

I think you did. (laughs) Yeah.

CHAD:

And, looking back on it, now that I work, I understand how awkward that was for you.

REBECCA:

(laughs) It wasn’t awkward. We had interns so.

CHAD:

Yeah, it’s true.

REBECCA:

But, the job, I was doing timetables for bus schedules so, I felt bad. I think you were bored the whole time.

CHAD:

No, it was actually really interesting for me. But, I remember you being like, “Well, you can sit next to me and here some’s magazines you can look through if you want.

ALL:

(laugh)

CHAD:

And, I was just fascinated by watching you work, which I guess was the whole point.

REBECCA:

I guess, yes. But, it was not a stimulating day with various amounts of projects. It’s was bus timetables and maps.

CHAD:

But, then you had me go sit with other people for a while, too. Which was good. You passed me around for a while. So, I got to see a gamut of what everybody did.

REBECCA:

Oh, good. I don’t remember you doing that.

JP:

Did that experience influence you in any way, shape or form?

CHAD:

Me?

JP:

Yeah.

CHAD:

Well, I remember it made everything real. Seeing these things we were doing in class and people actually out doing them in the real world.

REBECCA:

Somebody can actually make a living. Yeah.

CHAD:

And, that was the first time I’d seen that first hand, I think. So, it really was good.

REBECCA:

Oh good. That’s good. You’re welcome.

JP:

And so from there, you went on and continued in different positions.

REBECCA:

Yeah, just constantly… I was a wedding photographer for a while, I did a bunch of freelance and volunteer pro bono work for a while, all while working at Pierce Transit.

And, then I had some family things that happened that caused me to move home and help take care of things. And, home is on the Oregon coast. So, I worked for a small agency there and then focus primarily on my husband’s ceramic business.

And then, once my family stuff winded down and we were in a position to move back up here, I started applying for jobs. Actually, we opened it up to the I-5 corridor from Bellingham to Portland. We knew we wanted to stay in the Pacific Northwest, but we wanted to keep our options open. So, I just started sending resumes and job packets and tried to get a job. And, thankfully I did find one in Tacoma. Well, the company is kind of all over the place, but the office I work out of is in Tacoma.

JP:

So, you’ve been in the job market in a variety of different ways. What have been some of the things from the beginning when you were searching for the Pierce Transit job to this current job? What has changed for you do you think?

REBECCA:

Well, I’ve grown up a lot. And, I’ve grown as a designer. I’ve been lucky enough to work in the public sector, the private sector, the freelance world and now the non-profit. So, I feel because I’ve had that experience I know truly where I belong and the type of worker that I am. And, trying to understand that when I was first applying and getting a job, I just wanted a job. I mean I didn’t want to move home and live with my parents.

So, I was trying and my net was so big I was applying to jobs in New York and Santa Fe and kind of went all over the place. But, thankfully I had two champions that gave me the courage to practice interview questions and be persistent. Because, I don’t think it’s changed that much between getting a job then and getting a job now in that it’s all who you know. And, it’s really horrible that that’s how it is because I feel the best candidate should get the job. But, if you get that phone call, that somebody knows somebody, your resume goes to the top of the pile. So, at least they look at it more than they would if it was at the bottom. I did extensive interviews with both of those. So I think yeah, that helps you get a foot in the door but you still have to show your work.

I don’t know if you’ve had similar experiences, Chad.

CHAD:

Somewhat. I’ve actually gotten most of my jobs without any connections.

REBECCA:

Oh, that is awesome.

CHAD:

Somehow. Because I got my first job right out of school. Well, I knew somebody… Okay, that’s not really fair. So, I knew somebody that had just graduated with me that had gotten hired there.

REBECCA:

So, somebody was whispering your name.

CHAD:

Yeah, but I don’t know that they were a part of me getting an interview. I think once they saw me in the office interviewing, then that became a, “Oh, I know that type of person,” type of thing. And, the job I got after that, I got through LinkedIn. And, so that made me believe in the power of LinkedIn.

REBECCA:

I would agree with that.

CHAD:

I don’t know what your experience of that have been like, but…

REBECCA:

Well, I didn’t really think anything of it until applying for the job I have now. I originally thought, I even paid for the premium account, because I wanted to get the notifications and write people emails. But, I had four interviews that were all through LinkedIn. I had sent my application pack in there. But you can now apply through LinkedIn to jobs, then it tells you if they actually opened the application and looked at it. That’s kind of a helpful tool. I know. I didn’t have any idea that’s how it happened until it actually worked.

But, I would say it’s a matter of being persistent. I mean, I don’t feel like I’m an annoying person, maybe you two would disagree, but to constantly call and email and hound people that are trying to balance their busy days. Because when I worked at Pierce Transit, and we were interviewing folks, the interview process was on top of the regular duties of the day. And, so to go through all of the applications and all of that stuff, I try to keep that at the top of my mind when I’m writing the hundredth email. But, you have to be persistent and continue to not be discouraged. Because it is hard. Whether it’s big, most organizations have the emails that kick back to you and it’s just like, “Eh, we’re done with you.” But, the medium to small, you may never hear from them again.

JP:

So, what did you do to maintain your positive attitude. What is the word you used? Persistence.

REBECCA:

Yeah. I had to get a job. So, that was kind of… I knew that I had to get one and it was kind of open too… And, I was picky. I did have a couple of offers and interviews that the pay or the benefits that are important to my family right now and, to me, didn’t fit. So, I did kind of change my opinion. I felt that I got to choose the kind of place that I wanted to work at. So, that helped me continue to say, “The right one will come along, it just is going to take time.” And, we did have a backup plan if all shit went to shit. We had to be out by a certain amount of time because we had no housing, my mom sold her home, that we were renting. But, everything aligned. I got the job the same day she got the home. I mean, it was crazy how it all fell into place.

But, I relied on my people and the constant support I got from them. And, then continued to reach out to random folks that I’d either met at PLU or had connected to at a networking event or somebody who knows somebody. “Hey, you work there. Hi!”

CHAD:

Did you feel like you were able to be as picky when you were first coming out of school?

REBECCA:

No, I don’t think so. I was so eager to try out my skills, and I was really hoping I would get a job as a designer and not as an intern or a receptionist. I feel very lucky I was able to get that. It was four interviews to get that job, and the one I recently got was three. I mean, the further along in the process you get, the more hopeful it does get. So…

CHAD:

Is there certain websites that you go to all of the time or certain books that you reference? Are there any certain ones that you find yourself going back to?

REBECCA:

I love, “Steal Like an Artist.” LinkedIn just actually purchased Lynda, and that’s all training.

CHAD:

Oh, snap. Really?

REBECCA:

Yeah. That’s everything from design-related or not. So, that’s been a new exciting one.

CHAD:

No, that’s interesting because Debbie Millman interviewed Lynda, the Lynda, last season on her podcast, and she kept talking about how there was something big that they were working on. But, she was very anti-acquisition. So, when you said LinkedIn, that’s why my face got really big. I was like, “Oh, really?” But, that could have just been because she was trying to go the opposite direction, not to…

JP:

Just in case.

REBECCA:

Yeah. I’m trying to think of the company in Seattle that was just outstanding, in terms of Adobe training. And, for the life of me I can’t remember the name… Luminous Works.

JP:

Luminous, I wanted to say it was something with a light thing.

REBECCA:

Yeah, I have not been to their training recently. But, I went to almost every class they offered during the PT days. So, I definitely got something out of that.

CHAD:

How do you balance the technical aspect of learning with the maybe the more theoretical or conceptual parts?

REBECCA:

I think in my day-to-day, I don’t even have the time to even be… you know. And, that’s one thing going into my new job is they appreciate the quick turnaround. And, a lot of the stuff I’m doing is pretty commercial. So, I try in my personal work, and then with my husband with his ceramic work, we try to go there and are able to conceptualize all of those theories and colors and produce something.

CHAD:

Yeah, but just because you’re doing it in your personal life doesn’t mean you’re not doing it though.

REBECCA:

It’s true. It’s probably more subconscious that I’m doing things. But…

CHAD:

I think that’s an important thing to note, is often times we can’t find one hundred percent satisfaction in our work so we have to figure out how and where we can get that elsewhere. So, the fact that you’re doing all of these things in your free time and you’ve been really good about it. Because you keep talking about, “Oh, I was dong these things in my job, but then I was also doing all of these other things on the side.” When you do you sleep?

REBECCA:

(laughs) Yeah. I’m a busy body, I think. I really enjoy it. I think it’s a kind of hunger that I have that… there’s just so much out their to see and do and learn so many different types of things. And, that’s what keeps me going. Because, if you’re doing timetables, which aren’t the most exciting thing to do, I needed that balance of something more inspiring. I don’t know if Tufte does, I haven’t…

JP:

Have you been to a Tufte conference?

REBECCA:

Not since… I did go to one, yes. But, not in a very long time. But, I have gone back to, on multiple occasions, his books. Just because so much of, many parts of my job have been so much information design. And, everybody loves Powerpoint or Prezi’s or all of that presentation software out there that people use, and to try and simplify those graphics and help them communicate better is always a huge part of the work I do.

CHAD:

I’ve always wanted to go—never been.

JP:

We just can’t tell you.

REBECCA:

It’s kind of a right of passage. It’s like getting the gold card from Starbucks. You just don’t know how good it is until you get it.

CHAD:

But, it’s good?

REBECCA:

Yeah.

CHAD:

Okay.

REBECCA:

Yeah, he just has a way to capture an entire room…

JP:

But, there’s a new component to it. There’s just a day or a half-day conference lecture. And, it’s just him, plus two other people.

REBECCA:

Oh.

JP:

That was really fascinating. And, that’s where I met Maria Popova who has the BrainPickings website that is just awesome. I want to follow it and do everything that she does. Maria, if you’re listening, I love you.

ALL:

(laugh)

CHAD:

How did you… I mean you mentioned connecting with people through PLU. But, all of the other students, how did you connect with them? Or, how did they connect with you?

REBECCA:

Yeah. One of the projects that we did that is no longer, it was called Stand Out Prom. And, it was mentoring a high school girl that has a dream to be in the arts in college and pursue a creative career. So, we tried to bring in interns to help out with the load. And, a couple of them, just through Facebook and social media thought, “Oh, that looks so awesome, I want to be involved.” So, they came, there was two of them and they came on board.

And, then other ones, just word of mouth. People recommending, or someone that knows someone who knows somebody, or… It’s interesting in going to all of these shows for my husband’s pottery. You meet a variety of types of people at craft fairs. And, sometimes they linger in your booth and you strike up a conversation and they have a daughter or, you know, things like that. I grew up in customer service, so I think people always just enjoy talking and they want to be heard. And, they are always interested in, “Somebody is still doing pottery? Here? What?” So, that’s how.

CHAD:

But, I think that’s an interesting thing. Because that’s one thing that I didn’t really get over until I went to grad school and I consciously did it, was to actually reach out to people who I didn’t know and not be afraid of it. Because most people are actually really open and receptive. Otherwise, you just won’t hear anything back. And, what’s the risk in that?

REBECCA:

Right. I know. When I was looking for a job this last spring, I reached out to one of my colleagues and just was asking her for advice and insight and if she had any tips. One thing she had said she had done was ask for informational interviews. Because there’s no pressure. People just want to talk. And, they’d love to tell you about their job. And, if there is no interview on the line, whether you hire or not, then at least you put the face to the person. And, that’s one more connection that you have if you do apply for a job there.

CHAD:

Yeah, and those are even easier when you’re a student. When you’re not a student it’s a little harder.

REBECCA:

Yes. I know. Yeah. And, I feel like the older I get, the more maybe it’s not so easy. (laughs)

CHAD:

Yeah.

JP:

The two of them are looking at me as if I’m the old person in the room.

CHAD:

How do you feel about getting information interviews, Jp?

JP:

I can’t remember the last time I had an informational interview. I think the last time would be in my role as a faculty member was doing scholarships. I like the idea of having students go out and do informational interviews, we’ve talked about that quite a bit. And, things like joining AIGA, you know, networking.

REBECCA:

And honestly, pulling that student card will get you through so many doors. That’s one thing I wish I would have taken advantage of when I was a student. If I could have just been that annoying student to say, “Hi, I just want to learn more.” I’m pretty outgoing, but I think I just didn’t want to bother people.

JP:

Was it that you were embarrassed or…

REBECCA:

I think I was just shy. I just didn’t want to bother them, I thought they’d be annoyed with me. So, I’ll just not. You know?

JP:

I think that’s not uncommon for anyone at your age at the time. When you’re just coming out of school. I mean, I think even I was. “Oh, I don’t really want to.” Or, “I’ve got this other thing.” You know, making an excuse. And, that’s a reason why I can’t do it. As opposed, to saying, “Hey. Hi. Here I am. Welcome.” Shaking your hand, asking politely…

REBECCA:

Yeah, knowing your manners is key.

CHAD:

And I think for me, the more I did that, the easier it got, too. Because I always used to have a lot of anxiety about, “Well, when I show up, when I show up to Pierce Transit to talk to Rebecca, what do I say?” I don’t know anything. I don’t know what she does… But, then you just start asking questions and it all works out. And, pretty soon you’re just having a normal conversation. And, that’s what everything is. That’s how the world turns.

REBECCA:

Right. It’s true.

CHAD:

But, it took me a while to realize that.

REBECCA:

Well, yeah. Like with anything else.

JP:

Rebecca, do you have any questions for us? Or, any topics you want to talk about?

REBECCA:

Chad, now that you’ve been at grad school, do you feel interviewing entering back into the job world is something that you’re excited for or something that… Do you have a job in mind that you definitely want and you’ll only look at those results? Or, are you thinking… I’m trying to figure out how to word this…

CHAD:

Yeah. It’s like how do I plan on reentering the job market after going back to school?

REBECCA:

Yeah, maybe you should just ask yourself the question.

CHAD:

Chad, how do feel about reentering the job market after going back to school?

REBECCA:

Yes. (laughs)

CHAD:

I don’t know. I think it’ll be challenging for a number of reasons. So, when you talk about, do I have a job in mind that’s like the ideal job I want to do? I think I do. But, I went for trying to get an internship at those places doing that kind of work this summer and I aimed really high. I aimed for the stars and never left Earth, I think is a good way to put it.

But, through that process, I talked to a lot of people. I interviewed at some places I never thought I’d even get in the door at. And, I didn’t get really far. So, I think that kind of re-leveled me out a bit. Which was good, I think. Especially going into a second year because I’ll have a different perspective when I go and do it again.

I think it also forced me to make my own internship this summer, which has also been an interesting experience doing a number of things. As we talked about before, I think it’s figuring out what are those things you want to keep doing in order to keep growing. So, I’ve done a number of things. Doing those podcasts with Jp, taking these opportunities that arose to travel that I probably won’t get for a long time, so I’ve done a ton of traveling this summer. Also, it’s through the relationships that I’ve built, I’ve still, when I’ve been home, maintained and worked and everything.

But, in terms of once I graduate next year, am I nervous about entering the job market? I’d say yes. I think part of it is, we’ve read so much in school, and it’s been such different things than we read in undergrad, that most of us feel like we’ll never be satisfied with a job ever again (laughs) in a really depressing way.

REBECCA:

Nothing will give you the satisfaction.

CHAD:

Yeah. Or, there is no job out there that we feel will be so conscious of all of the good and the bad things about what we’re doing. There were moments last year where it was like, “How am I going to live with myself for the rest of my life?” And, it’s really hard.

REBECCA:

Yeah.

CHAD:

But, then it’s like, “Well, that’s because I’m overly conscious about it right now.” And, it’ll wear off a little bit. I think it’ll be really hard, but I think I’ll try to be picky. I don’t know.

What’s one thing you wish you would’ve known when you were in school that you know now? Or, two things. Or, maybe it was, do you wish you would’ve had a different perspective, or…

REBECCA:

I think my perspective and all of that was spot on. I think I should have relaxed a little bit. I was so… I remember just crying in Jp’s office because he was like, “You don’t have a portfolio and you’re a senior. What are you going to do?” And, just having a total meltdown. (laughs) And, thankfully that was the beginning of the year and not the end of senior year.

JP:

(laughs) Was that the right motivation for you?

REBECCA:

Yeah. I think I work really well under fear. It seems to drive a lot of things. That works for me. But, it doesn’t necessarily work for everybody else.

I wish I would’ve taken advantage of the printmaking, you know, more of the hands on art classes. I never took painting. I never… Because I was in such a panic to graduate, and I know all of those things right now, when you’re trying to be creative and create a whole new, whether it’s an invitation or something, being able to go back to those skills. I mean, thank goodness you two can teach you anything. (laughs)

But, I had to learn web design that summer after I graduated. I think I did two or three websites—I can’t remember. And, just really honed in on everything I could possibly add to my portfolio to get a job. And, web design was still new. I mean, HTML was still a big deal. And, now it’s evolved into so many other things. Thank goodness I know enough to be dangerous, but not enough… I don’t call myself a web designer. I work better with a web designer, and give him ideas and things they can take and change. But, social media, Facebook, it had just come out. I mean, I’m old now. (laughs) I had a birthday yesterday so I’m feeling old. (laughs)

CHAD:

But, I think that’s interesting looking back on your education. Because I know as students sometimes we’re hyper-focused on learning what the current thing is, what the current tools are, so we can be as marketable as can be walking out of school. And often times, we undervalue learning those analog things that informed the digital world in so many ways you don’t even realize until you learn them. They can make you transcend the digital world and learn those things so much faster because you understand the foundations of it.

REBECCA:

Yes, exactly. I mean, even going to print houses and understanding how the press works and all of those things that I learned on the job; on the job training. But not until then. Granted, Jp was just building the program, so it’s not like he could make everything for me happen. I mean come on. (laughs)

CHAD:

Jp, we’re looking at you with eyes of severe disappointment.

JP:

Get in line. Get in line.

REBECCA:

(laughs) I do think it’s really critical to have that base of understanding how to do all of the basics. You know, read, write, paint, draw. I never took a life drawing class. I wish I would have done that.

JP:

I don’t even think we had a life drawing class when you were in school.

REBECCA:

They did. It was a night class. But, I had a night shift, so.

CHAD:

Nobody wants to take night classes.

REBECCA:

It’s true. Not when you live off campus. But, they only offered it… It was pretty limiting with how to get there. And, I came to PLU because I wanted to travel and I definitely did that. And, I got an incredible education. But, I also feel there were so many other things I should’ve allowed myself to do and that was just self-imposed. I need structure. I need to do these, these, these and these instead of saying, “You know, I should take that. That would benefit me in the long run.”

CHAD:

So, relax.

REBECCA:

Chill out.

CHAD:

You know how much anxiety the gives me to say, or just to hear you say?

REBECCA:

Yeah. Grad school is different. I don’t even know. The thought of even going back to school freaks me out.

CHAD:

Yeah. I think that’s interesting because I often look back at my education and I think there’s some times where I’m like, “Yeah, I wish I would’ve chilled out.” But, there’s also time where I am like, “Man, I wish I would’ve been more intense.”

REBECCA & CHAD:

(laugh)

JP:

And, coming from you, that’s very hard to imagine.

REBECCA:

Mmm Hmmm.

CHAD:

It’s just like, “Oh man, there’s all of those things I didn’t do. I should’ve been more focused.”

JP:

Oh my gosh. I remember, I think it was the beginning of your senior year, I tried to convince you to drop crew in order to focus on something else. And, you were like, “I’m too into it. I can’t do it. I can’t let go.” And, I’m like, “Well…”

CHAD:

You know I did let go for a week. A week.

JP:

A week. And you know what that makes you? Weak.

ALL:

(laugh)

JP:

High-five everyone. High-five. (hands-slapping) Alright.

CHAD:

But Jp, it makes me a non-quitter.

JP:

And, that’s very true. I appreciate that more than being weak.

REBECCA:

You just took a mini-sabbatical.

JP:

We call it faux-baticals.

REBECCA:

That’s a good one. Yeah.

CHAD:

Are you thinking about what’s next already?

REBECCA:

I think getting this job definitely has me thinking about what’s next. It’s making me consider would I ever teach? I don’t know. Jp is like, “Yikes!”

Would I ever going into art directing? Would this role that I’m in, it’s a Senior Designer position so it has potential for people to work under me which is a little daunting because you’re responsible for having people work under you and those expectations. Sometimes it’s nice just to be told what to do rather than have that responsibility.

But, it has me thinking, you know, ten years, fifteen years, where do I want to be? What do we want to be doing? I run the business side of my husband’s pottery. So, thinking about if he goes into teaching, what that starts to look like.

But, for now I’m just excited to be in this role and keep learning. When I first started my job, the very first job at Pierce Transit, they were still on FreeHand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_FreeHand). So, I had to teach myself FreeHand in two days and slam out a bunch of projects. I’m really thankful that that’s all gone away and it’s still Adobe when I walk into that office. (laughs) Because that was really hard. And, I think that kind of kept with the constant feeling of needing to keep learning and keep up with industry trends and know the ins and outs of all of the programs that you can. So, not that I do right now, I hope to learn some more in my spare time.

CHAD:

Rebecca, thanks for being on the show with us today.

REBECCA:

You bet. I hope it was helpful.

CHAD:

As always, it’s fantastic seeing you and hearing your voice. Well, actually seeing you in person. But, for everyone else…

REBECCA:

Thank you very much.

JP:

See you next time.